# Do Confederate soldiers count for Memorial Day? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [May 28, 2013, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-confederate-soldiers-count-for-memorial-day/659568 "2013-05-28T18:56:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-confederate-soldiers-count-for-memorial-day/659568/201 "2013-05-29T16:22:09Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > I think it’s worth taking a step back and asking what it does or does not mean for confederate soldiers to “count”. Are there towns which read a roll call of dead soldiers from that town? If so, and if it’s just a list of names, I would have zero problem with those names including dead confederate soldiers, particularly if it was just names, not “died in service to the noble cause of the Confederacy” or something like that. > > I mean, you’re certainly not going to walk up to each individual person and say “OK, who are you remembering… great grand pappy who fought for Georgia? STOP IT! YOU ARE FORBIDDEN!!!” > I think more than anything else, the reason to let people honor the memory of confederate soldiers comes down to this: don’t be a dick. We won, they lost. Not only did their ancestors die, their ancestors died in a losing war supporting a cause that is now generally viewed as totally evil. Do we also have to be dicks about it and tell them their ancestors, individually, aren’t worthy of veneration? Yes. Yes we do. Because their actions aren’t worthy of veneration, at all, in any way. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-confederate-soldiers-count-for-memorial-day/659568/202 "2013-05-29T16:24:29Z")
> [@Skammer](#): > > People often accuse Southerners of continuing to fight the Civil War, but honestly in all my years here I’ve never heard such unresolved animosity as I have heard from the anti-Confederates in this thread. And to reiterate, I’m a born and raised Yankee. > > Every man who died on both sides of the war was someone’s son. They were brothers and husbands and fathers who were not, as individuals, fighting for the sake of committing atrocities or even for the sake of holding on to the institution of slavery – the vast majority of them never owned a slave in their lives. They were fighting for their home and way of life against what they were taught and believed were invading aggressors. > > We can’t impose 21st century morality on 19th century laborers who saw Union soldiers invading Virginia and Georgia and Tennessee and chose to fought for their families and community. They suffered and died just as well and bravely as the Union soldiers did. > > It’s been 150 years and the Union won. We can afford to be a little magnanimous about it at this point. No, we cannot, anymore than we can afford to be a little magnanimous about the actions of Hermann Goering or Pol Pot or any other individual who fought in support of heinous and reprehensible ideals. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-confederate-soldiers-count-for-memorial-day/659568/203 "2013-05-29T16:26:47Z")
Confederate? Fuck 'em. Great-great-grandfather Potter just rolled over in his grave, but so be it. He fought on the wrong side. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-confederate-soldiers-count-for-memorial-day/659568/204 "2013-05-29T16:33:38Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > LMFAO > > You can’t seriously be advancing the argument that “our colors” means anything other than “United States colors” can you? > > OMFG you are! I’m sure that’s what Johnson meant, yes. > [@Boyo Jim](#): > > I’m sorry, this is just a nonsense question. Congress decided to write a law defining the meaning of Memorial Day, and did so. By any reasonable interpretation, that language of that law excludes memorializing people who died fighting against the United States. If you can find any other statutory language that conflicts with this, from earlier or later, please show us. If Congress created Memorial Day in 1971, and didn’t get around to defining what it meant until 2000, what did Memorial Day mean in the intervening 29 years? > [@Boyo Jim](#): > > Let me restate my earlier comment in the form of a question. \*\*Is the federal statute defining the meaning of Memorial Day irrelevant (in your eyes) to who deserves to be memorialized on that day? \*\* In that it differs in at least two respects (war dead who did not embody “values and principles” worth treasuring, war dead who were not heroes) from the common conception of Memorial Day, and for those who wish to honor fallen Confederates, a third respect - no, I shan’t take my cues from the 2000 Congress about who should be honored under a holiday with roots from 1866. ---
**Author:** ![drewtwo99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d07c76/32.png) [@drewtwo99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewtwo99)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-confederate-soldiers-count-for-memorial-day/659568/205 "2013-05-29T16:33:43Z")
The more I read this thread, the worse and worse my opinion gets. I’d like to change my vote from “hell no” to “fuck the confederacy and fuck the states who still celebrate memorializing confederate soldiers.” ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-confederate-soldiers-count-for-memorial-day/659568/206 "2013-05-29T16:35:04Z")
What exactly is the concern, here? You’ll let your guard down for a moment, and neo-Confederates will reinstate chattel slavery? ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-confederate-soldiers-count-for-memorial-day/659568/207 "2013-05-29T16:38:43Z")
> [@Skammer](#): > > People often accuse Southerners of continuing to fight the Civil War, but honestly in all my years here I’ve never heard such unresolved animosity as I have heard from the anti-Confederates in this thread. Seriously. Antiquated, narrow, and divisive. ---
**Author:** ![drewtwo99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d07c76/32.png) [@drewtwo99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewtwo99)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-confederate-soldiers-count-for-memorial-day/659568/208 "2013-05-29T16:42:02Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > What exactly is the concern, here? You’ll let your guard down for a moment, and neo-Confederates will reinstate chattel slavery? The concern is that to memorialize someone, by definition, we are preserving their memory. What was the memory of the confederacy? Really fucking evil. In so many ways, beyond just slavery. Were individual soldiers in the confederate army really fucking evil though? Probably not. But if you want to trot out that they were fighting against invaders just like anyone would, go ahead. Doesn’t mean that the invaders they were fighting against were doing the right thing, and that defending themselves was the absolute wrong thing to do. I have a really hard time accepting that we should attach any positive feelings or memories to the confederacy, what they stood for, and why they fought and died. They are about as comically villainous as you get in the real world, other than Nazi Germany, really. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-confederate-soldiers-count-for-memorial-day/659568/209 "2013-05-29T16:43:14Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Memorial Day has nothing to do with honoring Confederate soldiers. It never has and never will. In actual practice, this is patently untrue. You have never been in a Southern graveyard on Memorial Day. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-confederate-soldiers-count-for-memorial-day/659568/210 "2013-05-29T16:52:15Z")
> [@drewtwo99](#): > > The concern is that to memorialize someone, by definition, we are preserving their memory. What was the memory of the confederacy? Really fucking evil. In so many ways, beyond just slavery. Again, though, what of it? We are looooong past the time where pro-Confederate forces might attempt to reignite hostilities if we don’t scold them at every turn. This is just moral outrage, there’s nothing at stake. > [@drewtwo99](#): > > Were individual soldiers in the confederate army really fucking evil though? Probably not. But if you want to trot out that they were fighting against invaders just like anyone would, go ahead. Doesn’t mean that the invaders they were fighting against were doing the right thing, and that defending themselves was the absolute wrong thing to do. That is the position we’re talking about here, though. Honoring individual soldiers, who were scared young men doing what they thought was right, though they were badly mistaken in that belief. They were doing what any of us would have had we been born in their time and place. No, they weren’t doing the right thing, but they fought bravely and honorably, and their descendants should and do honor them for that. For all our bloviating here, there’s nothing that can be done to stop an Alabama TV station from including Confederates in its Memorial Day broadcast, or to stop individuals with Confederate relatives from honoring them on that or any other day. > [@drewtwo99](#): > > I have a really hard time accepting that we should attach any positive feelings or memories to the confederacy, what they stood for, and why they fought and died. They are about as comically villainous as you get in the real world, other than Nazi Germany, really. And if Germans want to honor their soldiers from World War Two on their equivalent to Memorial Day (if they have one), they should do so. It’s not an endorsement of the Third Reich, that fundamental disconnect seems to be driving animosity here. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-confederate-soldiers-count-for-memorial-day/659568/211 "2013-05-29T16:58:59Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > And if Germans want to honor their soldiers from World War Two on their equivalent to Memorial Day (if they have one), they should do so. It’s not an endorsement of the Third Reich, that fundamental disconnect seems to be driving animosity here. Germans don’t parade around with Nazi flags on their BMWs, and spend their weekends dressing in Waffen SS uniforms and proclaiming every chance they get that their cause was a noble crusade and that Hitler will rise again! ---
**Author:** ![drewtwo99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d07c76/32.png) [@drewtwo99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewtwo99)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-confederate-soldiers-count-for-memorial-day/659568/212 "2013-05-29T16:59:15Z")
There is nothing to honor, is what I’m saying. So they fought and died for evil reasons. Remember them, sure, and while remembering them, remember exactly who they fought for and why. But honoring and memorializing them is inappropriate, to me. And you are 100% correct, it’s just moral outrage here. There’s absolutely nothing at stake, which is why it’s a fun thing to get riled up about, haha! ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-confederate-soldiers-count-for-memorial-day/659568/213 "2013-05-29T17:02:16Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > Do we also have to be dicks about it and tell them their ancestors, individually, aren’t worthy of veneration? Just that these, particular ancestors aren’t worthy of veneration. Surely, that’s not some unique burden. Each and every human being has at least one, specific ancestor who would not be worthy of national veneration. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-confederate-soldiers-count-for-memorial-day/659568/214 "2013-05-29T17:07:56Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > Germans don’t parade around with Nazi flags on their BMWs… It’s ilegal there, is it not? > [@silenus](#): > > and spend their weekends dressing in Waffen SS uniforms… Is that what you think Civil War reenacting is? Good, noble people protray the Union, bad racist people portray the Confederacy? > [@silenus](#): > > and proclaiming every chance they get that their cause was a noble crusade and that Hitler will rise again! Do you actually know any Southerners? ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-confederate-soldiers-count-for-memorial-day/659568/215 "2013-05-29T17:25:37Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > Germans don’t parade around with Nazi flags on their BMWs, and spend their weekends dressing in Waffen SS uniforms and proclaiming every chance they get that their cause was a noble crusade and that Hitler will rise again! Uh, neither do 99.99999999% of Southeners. I’ve been here 13 years and have seen maybe two Confederate flags on cars, and I’ve _never_ heard anyone claim that the rebellion was “noble crusade.”\* Or that the South will Rise Again, except in jest. \*Granted, I did hear a docent at Ft. Donelson blame the war on that bloodthirsty tyrant Abe Lincoln. ---
**Author:** ![delphica](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e9a140/32.png) [@delphica](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/delphica)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-confederate-soldiers-count-for-memorial-day/659568/216 "2013-05-29T17:26:35Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Memorial Day has nothing to do with honoring Confederate soldiers. It never has and never will. The holiday known as Memorial Day, as is made clear in the Presidential Proclamation I cited earlier, is to honor people who died in service to the United States. > > Why don’t you provide a cite that explicitly shows that the holiday has anything to do with honoring Confederate soldiers? Because you cannot because it does not. Well, here is an article from 1886, with the headlines “Flowers for the Brave, Union and Confederate Dead honored in Chicago.” > **[The New York Times - Breaking News, US News, World News and Videos](https://www.nytimes.com?res=FA0611FA3C5C10738DDDA90B94DD405B8684F0D3)** > > Live news, investigations, opinion, photos and video by the journalists of The New York Times from more than 150 countries around the world. Subscribe for coverage of U.S. and international news, politics, business, technology, science, health, arts,... It’s an interesting read. Looks like there where separate but coordinated Union and Confederate activities, with the Confederate vets paying tribute at both Union and Confederate graves. The article does not incidate any objection to the Confederate presence. The Confederate chaplain is quoted as saying: _“Whatever of sectional animosity or partisan hatred may have been evolved during the war, we are thankful that it no longer exists, and pray that we may now know of but one sentiment – the love of God and the love of our one country.”_ ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-confederate-soldiers-count-for-memorial-day/659568/217 "2013-05-29T17:26:46Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Do you actually know any Southerners? Most of my family. And their friends. And all the people I meet traveling through the South. So quite a few, actually. Most aren’t assholes. Those with rebel flags on their trucks most definitely are. As for re-enactors, I think _all of them_ are crazy. And it takes both sides to make a fake battle. It’s just that one of those sides is demonstrably Evil, and a lot of the people who gravitate to that side support that evil. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-confederate-soldiers-count-for-memorial-day/659568/218 "2013-05-29T17:31:12Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > Most of my family. And their friends. And all the people I meet traveling through the South. So quite a few, actually. Most aren’t assholes. Those with rebel flags on their trucks most definitely are. And how many proclaim every chance they get that the war was a noble crusade, or that the South will rise again and fight another civil war? > [@silenus](#): > > As for re-enactors, I think _all of them_ are crazy. And it takes both sides to make a fake battle. It’s just that one of those sides is demonstrably Evil, and a lot of the people who gravitate to that side support that evil. They’re not crazy, they are just a specific type of nerd. They no more support evil than fanboys who dress as Darth Vader do. ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-confederate-soldiers-count-for-memorial-day/659568/219 "2013-05-29T17:31:33Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > It’s just that one of those sides is demonstrably Evil, and a lot of the people who gravitate to that side support that evil. That’s so preposterous I wonder if I’m being whooshed. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-confederate-soldiers-count-for-memorial-day/659568/220 "2013-05-29T17:32:24Z")
> [@](#): > > As for re-enactors, I think all of them are crazy. And it takes both sides to make a fake battle. It’s just that one of those sides is demonstrably Evil, and a lot of the people who gravitate to that side support that evil. I think you might be reading a bit too much into that. It’s like saying people who dress as orcs for Halloween are evil because, hey, fucking orcs. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-confederate-soldiers-count-for-memorial-day/659568.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-confederate-soldiers-count-for-memorial-day/659568.md?page=12)