# Do Confederate soldiers count for Memorial Day? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [May 28, 2013, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-confederate-soldiers-count-for-memorial-day/659568 "2013-05-28T18:56:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2013, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-confederate-soldiers-count-for-memorial-day/659568/281 "2013-05-30T17:33:50Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > But we’ve got more normal people than the South, and if there really isn’t much difference, then why do Southerners bother to take pride in it? They know, and we all know, there is a quality about the South, and whether one wants to dress it up as pro-state or just come out and admit they are racist fucks, we all know that the stereotype is often true Bull. Shit. People are the same everywhere. I can’t help but be appalled at how ugly this thread is, not just toward the Confederate soldiers but toward the South in general. They defended slavery, which was an evil institution, but that doesn’t make every mother’s son of them an evil person. In 200 years I wonder how evil our descendants will assume us to be because of our tolerance of poverty or some other injustice that we’re mostly blind to or prefer to ignore. The _best_ argument against excluding Confederate soldiers from Memorial Day is not the moral argument but the legal one - they fought against the US government. But I prefer to follow the example of the father in the parable of the prodigal son - they left; they were forced to come back; we ought to celebrate their return. I find the holding of grudges after 150 years to be pretty sad whether it’s from an Alabama redneck or a New England bluenose. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2013, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-confederate-soldiers-count-for-memorial-day/659568/282 "2013-05-30T17:59:39Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > All stereotypes are often true; that’s why they exist. So is it okay to make sweeping comments about how Jews are clannish and greedy, blacks are lazy and on welfare, Asians are overachieving bad drivers, gays are vapid promiscuous lispers, and Mexicans are menial laborers or gang members because “we’re just talking about trends here, not all of them”? Its ok if its true and being spread by the group themselves. The ones you quoted are not true, they are spread by people who hate those groups. The South recognizes themselves as separate, keep up a false pretense of the “real” history, and pretend like they were the good guys in a war over slavery. It is ok to stereotype them because they themselves perpetuate it because they think Southern heritage deserves to be venerated, but the rest of us simply look on in horrible fascination. > [@Sampiro](#): > > … > > my problem with Confederates being included in Memorial Day has zilch to do with the issue of slavery; it’s the fact they were not fighting _for_ the U.S. but were in open rebellion against it. > > … > > the notion of an entire side being evil and deserving to have their graves pissed on is a longing from an attention starved subscriber to a puerile mindset). Your second sentence is justified by the first ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2013, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-confederate-soldiers-count-for-memorial-day/659568/283 "2013-05-30T18:04:23Z")
> [@Skammer](#): > > Bull. Shit. People are the same everywhere. > > I can’t help but be appalled at how ugly this thread is, not just toward the Confederate soldiers but toward the South in general. They defended slavery, which was an evil institution, but that doesn’t make every mother’s son of them an evil person. In 200 years I wonder how evil our descendants will assume us to be because of our tolerance of poverty or some other injustice that we’re mostly blind to or prefer to ignore. > > The _best_ argument against excluding Confederate soldiers from Memorial Day is not the moral argument but the legal one - they fought against the US government. But I prefer to follow the example of the father in the parable of the prodigal son - they left; they were forced to come back; we ought to celebrate their return. I find the holding of grudges after 150 years to be pretty sad whether it’s from an Alabama redneck or a New England bluenose. That bigoted rant was actually from **YogSosoth** , not **dropzone**. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2013, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-confederate-soldiers-count-for-memorial-day/659568/284 "2013-05-30T18:06:23Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Its ok if its true and being spread by the group themselves. The ones you quoted are not true, they are spread by people who hate those groups. The South recognizes themselves as separate, keep up a false pretense of the “real” history, and pretend like they were the good guys in a war over slavery. It is ok to stereotype them because they themselves perpetuate it because they think Southern heritage deserves to be venerated, but the rest of us simply look on in horrible fascination. There you go, when called out on stereotyping, double-down with more stereotypes. You have no idea what you’re talking about, and it shows. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2013, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-confederate-soldiers-count-for-memorial-day/659568/285 "2013-05-30T18:45:12Z")
> [@Skammer](#): > > I can’t help but be appalled at how ugly this thread is, not just toward the Confederate soldiers but toward the South in general. They defended slavery, which was an evil institution, but that doesn’t make every mother’s son of them an evil person. In 200 years I wonder how evil our descendants will assume us to be because of our tolerance of poverty or some other injustice that we’re mostly blind to or prefer to ignore. Meh. If there’s a war that’s fought over ending poverty, I’m happy to call people who fight on the side of preserving poverty evil. If we need to judge people as “evil,” then what better way to judge them than whether they do evil things or act to preserve evil institutions? ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2013, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-confederate-soldiers-count-for-memorial-day/659568/286 "2013-05-30T19:10:04Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > That bigoted rant was actually from **YogSosoth** , not **dropzone**. Apologies, **dropzone** ; I had started to include a quote by you and then messed up the coding when I deleted it. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2013, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-confederate-soldiers-count-for-memorial-day/659568/287 "2013-05-30T19:30:50Z")
The other thing I want to say about attacking the south in general is that there’s a pernicious undercurrent of disenfranchisement in it: often those Yankee snots disparaging the South are actually disparaging the white south, as though the black people in the South don’t count (or the gay people, or whatever). When you talk about Southern culture, you’re talking about black people in addition to white people. And of course it shouldn’t need to be said, but it does: plenty of white southerners are not, and were not, racist jerks. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2013, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-confederate-soldiers-count-for-memorial-day/659568/288 "2013-05-30T20:44:51Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Its ok if its true and being spread by the group themselves. The ones you quoted are not true, they are spread by people who hate those groups. The South recognizes themselves as separate, keep up a false pretense of the “real” history, and pretend like they were the good guys in a war over slavery. It is ok to stereotype them because they themselves perpetuate it because they think Southern heritage deserves to be venerated, but the rest of us simply look on in horrible fascination. If by “the South” you mean a tiny minority of people you could probably find in a Dollar General parking lot if you looked hard enough then perhaps. The states that constituted the Confederacy account for well over 1/5 of the population of the United States- that’s more than 60 million people and that doesn’t include border states. They include Clinton and Gore as well as the crazy rednecks, they include Morgan Freeman as well as Lindsey Graham, and there’s not a whole lot you can say that is true of even a majority of the 60 million in terms of how they view the world. Now if you maintain “we” southerners see ourselves as a distinct region in terms of history and culture, absolutely that’s true, but so do New Englanders and Midwesterners and New York City residents and Pacific Northwesterners. Then inside the south there’s the Gulf Coasters, the Texans, the Louisianans (of whom New Orleansians and Cajuns are separate subgroups yet) and Applachian residents and Atlantans, etc.. “The South” in reference to a group of people is not much more useful than saying “the Protestants”. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2013, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-confederate-soldiers-count-for-memorial-day/659568/289 "2013-05-30T21:55:43Z")
> [@mlees](#): > > I understand that, to a lot of southerners at the time, slavery and states rights were more or less the same thing, and that they felt that the U.S. had fallen away from it’s core values of limited government (limits to Federal authority as defined in the Constitution). Which to the extent that’s not just historical revisionism, is pure hypocrisy on their part. They opposed “state’s rights” for most of the nation’s history, using their domination over the federal government to protect slavery. It was only when they started _losing_ that the federal government being dominant over the states was bad. ---
**Author:** ![BlankSlate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blankslate/32/80_2.png) [@BlankSlate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlankSlate)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2013, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-confederate-soldiers-count-for-memorial-day/659568/290 "2013-05-30T22:24:36Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > The other thing I want to say about attacking the south in general is that there’s a pernicious undercurrent of disenfranchisement in it: often those Yankee snots disparaging the South are actually disparaging the white south, as though the black people in the South don’t count (or the gay people, or whatever). When you talk about Southern culture, you’re talking about black people in addition to white people. > > And of course it shouldn’t need to be said, but it does: plenty of white southerners are not, and were not, racist jerks. Amen. And I will concede that the confederate soldiers were possibly the most honorable and bravest warriors to ever fight a war. It doesn’t matter. Only soldiers who fought for, and wore the uniform of, the **United States** should be honored on a nationally celebrated, **American** federal holiday. Others can get their honors elsewhere. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2013, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-confederate-soldiers-count-for-memorial-day/659568/291 "2013-05-30T23:45:07Z")
> [@Skammer](#): > > Apologies, **dropzone** ; I had started to include a quote by you and then messed up the coding when I deleted it. No problem. I was pretty sure I hadn’t said that but I had to make sure! 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2013, 10:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-confederate-soldiers-count-for-memorial-day/659568/292 "2013-05-31T10:38:28Z")
> [@BlankSlate](#): > > Amen. And I will concede that the confederate soldiers were possibly the most honorable and bravest warriors to ever fight a war. It doesn’t matter. > > Only soldiers who fought for, and wore the uniform of, the **United States** should be honored on a nationally celebrated, **American** federal holiday. Others can get their honors elsewhere. Exactly. I have zero animus toward the south. I like the south when I travel there. We’re all Americans, and I feels as “at home” in Georgia as I do in Minnesota or Connecticut (or wherever). I like the people and places and culture, frankly, what I’ve experienced anyway. But on a holiday where we honor those who sacrificed their lives in the service of our country, for me, by definition, that excludes those who fought for the enemy and killed the very guys we’re honoring. That’s all. All this “they’re brave and honorable too!” and “Why all the south hate?” stuff is a red herring. It’s irrelevant (for me). ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2013, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-confederate-soldiers-count-for-memorial-day/659568/293 "2013-05-31T12:49:03Z")
> [@BlankSlate](#): > > Amen. And I will concede that the confederate soldiers were possibly the most honorable and bravest warriors to ever fight a war. It doesn’t matter. > > Only soldiers who fought for, and wore the uniform of, the **United States** should be honored on a nationally celebrated, **American** federal holiday. Others can get their honors elsewhere. Well, as per the [Veteran’s Administration](http://www1.va.gov/opa/speceven/memday/history.asp), Alabama apparently celebrates Confederate Memorial Day on a day other than the American federal holiday – as does Georgia, and Louisiana, and Mississippi, and North and South Carolina; Tennessee and Texas apparently call it _“Confederate Decoration Day”_ and _“Confederate Heroes Day”_, respectively. At that, [Wiki](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confederate_Memorial_Day) sez Arkansas and Florida and Kentucky celebrate Confederate Memorial Day likewise. Virginia, though, apparently celebrates Confederate Memorial Day on – the last Monday in May. ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2013, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-confederate-soldiers-count-for-memorial-day/659568/294 "2013-05-31T14:28:14Z")
From a master: [QUOTE=Arthur C Clarke, Earthlight, 1955] Every evening, as the sun drops down beyond the lonely pyramid of Pico, the shadow of the great mountain reaches out to engulf the metal column that will stand in the Sea of Rains as long as the Sea itself endures. There are five hundred and twenty-seven names on that column, in alphabetical order. No mark distinguishes the men who died for the Federation fron those who died for Earth, and perhaps this simple fact is the best proof that they did not die in vain. [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2013, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-confederate-soldiers-count-for-memorial-day/659568/295 "2013-05-31T14:34:09Z")
[QUOTE=The Other Waldo Pepper] Virginia, though, apparently celebrates Confederate Memorial Day on – the last Monday in May. [/QUOTE] Not a bad idea, actually; it’s there if you want to honor it or you can just ignore it like it was Boxing Day or Muhammad’s birthday, and to those offended by the Confederacy it doesn’t give them a separate state holiday. The state Confederate holiday is an issue every year in Alabama: I don’t think any black employees are happy with it and I’m sure given a choice to rename it Civil Rights Movement Memorial Day they’d vote 99%+ in favor of it, but on the pragmatic level of keep it as paid holiday commemorating the Confederacy or just not have a paid holiday at all the vote would probably be more split. I think most people would approve a state holiday celebrating the British burning of D.C. if it would give them a three day weekend. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2013, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-confederate-soldiers-count-for-memorial-day/659568/296 "2013-05-31T15:57:00Z")
[This](http://www.slate.com/blogs/behold/2013/05/30/anderson_scott_whistling_dixie_examines_civil_war_re_enactments_photos.html) seems aptly timed. A civil war re-enactor photographer talks about some of the alternate reality beliefs of his subjects. It includes this gem: > [@](#): > > “… the Civil War is more important to many contemporary Southerners than it is to most Northerners. Northerners seem to have moved on; a lot of Southerners, not so much.” And again, in response to\*\* Human Action\*\* and **Sampiro** , there are significantly enough Southerners who think like modern-day Confederates that it is not an unfair criticism of them to say many are racist fucks. To belabor the point yet again, black people don’t go around proudly stating they’re lazy, Asians don’t boast about their traffic tickets, Jews don’t consider themselves greedy, gays don’t lisp on purpose, and Mexicans don’t take menial jobs or become gang members as a hobby. Those stereotypes are created for them by others to demean them But people in the South vote and support things like “states’ rights”, which we all know is code for “let us have slaves if we want to”. They re-enact the Civil War and dream about a rejuvenated South. They venerate war criminals and traitors like the generals who fought in the war and those who later became the KKK. They pretend like the Confederate flag is not a banner for unAmerican foreigners. These are things they are proud of. The Conferderates were about as American as any South American. They didn’t like America, didn’t want to be here, tried to kill over it, and lost, and have carried a grudge about it for 150 years. I’m totally over it, I don’t give a damn about the Confederates, but if people are actively rewriting history, then I AM going to give a fuck ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2013, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-confederate-soldiers-count-for-memorial-day/659568/297 "2013-05-31T16:22:56Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > [This](http://www.slate.com/blogs/behold/2013/05/30/anderson_scott_whistling_dixie_examines_civil_war_re_enactments_photos.html) seems aptly timed. A civil war re-enactor photographer talks about some of the alternate reality beliefs of his subjects. It includes this gem: Well, that settles it. People who participate in war re-enactments are more interested in and aware of the war than people who don’t, in the opinion of this gentleman. Shocking, if true. :rolleyes: > [@YogSosoth](#): > > And again, in response to\*\* Human Action\*\* and **Sampiro** , there are significantly enough Southerners who think like modern-day Confederates that it is not an unfair criticism of them to say many are racist fucks. What are you basing this on? How many are “significantly enough” to justify the stereotype? > [@YogSosoth](#): > > To belabor the point yet again, black people don’t go around proudly stating they’re lazy, Asians don’t boast about their traffic tickets, Jews don’t consider themselves greedy, gays don’t lisp on purpose, and Mexicans don’t take menial jobs or become gang members as a hobby. Those stereotypes are created for them by others to demean them And the stereotype you’re creating for Southerners to demean them is that they are “racist fucks” who “think like modern-day Confederates”. > [@YogSosoth](#): > > But people in the South vote and support things like “states’ rights”, which we all know is code for “let us have slaves if we want to”. None of us know that, because it’s absurd. But, I’m sure you have plenty of evidence that Southerners are itching to bring back slavery. > [@YogSosoth](#): > > They re-enact the Civil War… Like at that notable city in the Deep South, [Gettysburg, Pennsylvania.](http://www.gettysburgreenactment.com/) Clearly you’ve never spoken to a war re-enacter; they are history nerds. The idea that they are rooting for the 150-year-old politics behind the historical character they are portraying is as silly as claiming that Christian Bale wants costumed billionaire vigilantes to enforce order. > [@YogSosoth](#): > > …and dream about a rejuvenated South. I want the South to be rejuvenated, meaning wealthier and less conservative. > [@YogSosoth](#): > > They venerate war criminals and traitors like the generals who fought in the war and those who later became the KKK. What war criminals? Henry Wirz? George Washington was a traitor, too, and we venerate him anyway. > [@YogSosoth](#): > > They pretend like the Confederate flag is not a banner for unAmerican foreigners. That’s not what it means to many folks, many just use it to represent the South. > [@YogSosoth](#): > > These are things they are proud of. Of which you are certain, based on nothing but ignorant stereotypes. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2013, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-confederate-soldiers-count-for-memorial-day/659568/298 "2013-05-31T17:25:02Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > George Washington was a traitor, too, and we venerate him anyway. If this point is relevant, you must be British. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2013, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-confederate-soldiers-count-for-memorial-day/659568/299 "2013-05-31T17:28:09Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > If this point is relevant, you must be British. He was a traitor, that’s simply a fact. He was a traitor for a cause that we modern Americans agree was a noble one, and thus his treason was justified, but he was a traitor. If the mere fact of treason excludes one from veneration, as **YogSosoth** suggests, then the Founding Fathers are so excluded. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2013, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-confederate-soldiers-count-for-memorial-day/659568/300 "2013-05-31T17:34:02Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > He was a traitor, that’s simply a fact. The “traitor” aspect of this discussion isn’t about traitors, it’s about **traitors to our country**. Unless you’re British, Washington isn’t a traitor to your country. And if you’re British, do you seriously venerate Washington? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-confederate-soldiers-count-for-memorial-day/659568.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-confederate-soldiers-count-for-memorial-day/659568.md?page=16)