# Do Confederate soldiers count for Memorial Day? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [May 28, 2013, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-confederate-soldiers-count-for-memorial-day/659568 "2013-05-28T18:56:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![BlankSlate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blankslate/32/80_2.png) [@BlankSlate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlankSlate)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-confederate-soldiers-count-for-memorial-day/659568/61 "2013-05-29T00:00:52Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > FTR I went with option one. Simply for the fact that the holiday was started as a way to honor the dead on both sides of the Civil War in order to help with the healing. I see no reason to retroactively go back and change that. After a long weekend of hearing politicians and talking heads gabble on about honoring those who “protect our freedoms”, then the reason for the holiday is obviously being misinterpreted. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-confederate-soldiers-count-for-memorial-day/659568/62 "2013-05-29T00:02:00Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > This is nationally recognized as “The Stratocaster Doctrine,” and it’s binding on no one. I await your manifesto. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-confederate-soldiers-count-for-memorial-day/659568/63 "2013-05-29T00:06:06Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > Yes, there is a [Fort Lee](http://www.lee.army.mil/). You may have also heard about Fort Hood, Fort Bragg, Fort Benning. Pretty much every army post south of the Mason-Dixon Line was named after a Confederate general. > > Lee, Hood, Benning, A.P. Hill, Rucker, Polk, Pickett, Gordon and Beauregard. I think thats all of them I was not aware of all that; thank you for the info. I’d note that General Lee was at one time a United States soldier and was, apparently, instrumental in the Restoration. Perhaps the Camp (and later Fort) were officially named for the years he spent in service to the United States? I’d also note that he was stripped of his citizenship after the war and only had it restored posthumously a century later by President Ford. In any case, I’d be in favor of re-naming each of those places for other (less traitorous) people. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-confederate-soldiers-count-for-memorial-day/659568/64 "2013-05-29T00:09:19Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > I’m all for giving veterans their due for their service. But honoring dead people irrespective of why they’re dead? Seems pretty ridiculous to me. Would you distinguish, say, between the fallen of the Second World War and of Vietnam? Idle curiosity. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-confederate-soldiers-count-for-memorial-day/659568/65 "2013-05-29T00:13:38Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > I await your manifesto. It’s written in crayon on the back of a coupon for Fruit Loops. It sounds a lot more impressive than it looks. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-confederate-soldiers-count-for-memorial-day/659568/66 "2013-05-29T00:15:38Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > Would you distinguish, say, between the fallen of the Second World War and of Vietnam? Idle curiosity. Irrespective of their individual motives for fighting, soldiers in these wars fought under the US flag, in US uniform, on behalf of Americans. So no, I wouldn’t. . ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-confederate-soldiers-count-for-memorial-day/659568/67 "2013-05-29T00:20:36Z")
> [@BlankSlate](#): > > Screw legally, let’s go with morally. We could have Treason Day to “honor” the confederate soldiers. Or better yet, we could have Memorial Day to honor all fallen American soldiers, no matter how unpopular the war they died in. > [@monstro](#): > > If’n you don’t know why a particular dude fought in the war, how do you know whether they should be honored? > > Maybe he was fighting to defend his homeland from the dirty Yankees. > > Maybe he was fighting to get his rapin’ and pillagin’ on. That rules out anything like Memorial Day, though. Unsavory motivations have been part of every conflict every fought, and a mass celebration like Memorial Day precludes going soldier-by-soldier to decide whose motives are documented and worthy of honoring. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-confederate-soldiers-count-for-memorial-day/659568/68 "2013-05-29T00:30:07Z")
> [@BlankSlate](#): > > After a long weekend of hearing politicians and talking heads gabble on about honoring those who “protect our freedoms”, then the reason for the holiday is obviously being misinterpreted. Must be, since protecting our freedoms accounts for a very small portion of the armed conflicts ever waged by the United States. ---
**Author:** ![BlankSlate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blankslate/32/80_2.png) [@BlankSlate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlankSlate)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-confederate-soldiers-count-for-memorial-day/659568/69 "2013-05-29T00:37:37Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Or better yet, we could have Memorial Day to honor all fallen American soldiers, no matter how unpopular the war they died in. That would cover Vietnam, but I’d still only support a holiday that honors soldiers who fought _for_ the U.S. of A. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-confederate-soldiers-count-for-memorial-day/659568/70 "2013-05-29T00:41:54Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Different people can come to the same decision based on very different beliefs, ideals, and motives. So _what?_ :rolleyes: You can try to handwave it away all you like, but they were fighting for slavery. That’s why the Confederacy existed. > [@Human\_Action](#): > > Or better yet, we could have Memorial Day to honor all fallen American soldiers, no matter how unpopular the war they died in. There’s “unpopular”, and then there’s “pure evil”. The cause of the Confederacy was the latter. Would you be in favor of honoring soldiers who died in “The Rape War”, a hypothetical war whose official and only purpose was to invade some other country and rape as many women as possible? Because that would be if anything less evil than the cause of the Confederacy. To make it as evil, the war would have to be fought by Rapetopia, a nation that was founded for the purpose of protecting and promoting rape, and wrote its unalterable support of rape into its Constitution. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-confederate-soldiers-count-for-memorial-day/659568/71 "2013-05-29T00:44:12Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > SCOTUS held in [Texas v. White](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_v._White) that the rebel states remained part of the Union for the duration of the conflict. Legally, the Confederates never stopped being Americans. Yeah, that’s why they are traitors. Do we honor Benedict Arnold? Would we honor the Rosenbergs? Robert Hanssen? Aldrich Ames? They are all Americans. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-confederate-soldiers-count-for-memorial-day/659568/72 "2013-05-29T00:45:47Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > Yes, there is a [Fort Lee](http://www.lee.army.mil/). You may have also heard about Fort Hood, Fort Bragg, Fort Benning. Pretty much every army post south of the Mason-Dixon Line was named after a Confederate general. > > Lee, Hood, Benning, A.P. Hill, Rucker, Polk, Pickett, Gordon and Beauregard. I think thats all of them Maybe Robert E. Lee was the picture of noble gallantry, but Henry Benning was a pretty despicable pro-slaver and secessionist. It’s a sad historical mistake that we allow such a man to be honored in this way. If your oath of enlistment did not include something about bearing true faith and allegiance to the United States of America, then you don’t deserve to be honored on Memorial Day nor Veterans Day nor the 4th of July. None of it. The war was a long time ago, we need to move past reconciliation. If anyone can’t handle that their great-grandpap fought on the losing side for wrong reasons, they just need to get over it. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-confederate-soldiers-count-for-memorial-day/659568/73 "2013-05-29T00:49:34Z")
> [@BlankSlate](#): > > That would cover Vietnam, but I’d still only support a holiday that honors soldiers who fought _for_ the U.S. of A. That’s your choice, sure. You don’t have to honor anyone you don’t want to. > [@Acsenray](#): > > Yeah, that’s why they are traitors. Well, either they were Americans, and thus covered by a holiday that honors all Americans who died in the armed services, or they weren’t, in which case the Confederacy was a legally-valid entity and Reconstruction was based on a lie. You can’t have it both ways. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-confederate-soldiers-count-for-memorial-day/659568/74 "2013-05-29T00:53:21Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > So _what?_ :rolleyes: > > You can try to handwave it away all you like, but they were fighting for slavery. That’s why the Confederacy existed. It’s not a handwave, it’s the truth. Fighting for the Confederacy is not the same as fighting for slavery. Certainly, many were explicitly fighting for slavery, and while they were wrong to do so, they died in honorable combat as Americans and should be honored as such. > [@Der Trihs](#): > > There’s “unpopular”, and then there’s “pure evil”. The cause of the Confederacy was the latter. As noted, some of Indian Wars are rivals in the pure-evil department. > [@Der Trihs](#): > > Would you be in favor of honoring soldiers who died in “The Rape War”, a hypothetical war whose official and only purpose was to invade some other country and rape as many women as possible? Because that would be if anything less evil than the cause of the Confederacy. To make it as evil, the war would have to be fought by Rapetopia, a nation that was founded for the purpose of protecting and promoting rape, and wrote its unalterable support of rape into its Constitution. Were they Americans, fighting honorably in a regular army? If so, then yes, they should be honored as such. You seem unable or unwilling to separate the men from the cause (even such a varied cause as it was), but I am not. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-confederate-soldiers-count-for-memorial-day/659568/75 "2013-05-29T00:57:49Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > If your oath of enlistment did not include something about bearing true faith and allegiance to the United States of America, then you don’t deserve to be honored on Memorial Day nor Veterans Day nor the 4th of July. None of it. The war was a long time ago, we need to move past reconciliation. If anyone can’t handle that their great-grandpap fought on the losing side for wrong reasons, they just need to get over it. Let great-grandpap’s grave overgrow with weeds, in the name of presentism? That won’t hold much appeal for many folks who actually have Confederate ancestors to honor. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-confederate-soldiers-count-for-memorial-day/659568/76 "2013-05-29T00:59:30Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > I was not aware of all that; thank you for the info. > > I’d note that General Lee was at one time a United States soldier and was, apparently, instrumental in the Restoration. Perhaps the Camp (and later Fort) were officially named for the years he spent in service to the United States? > > I’d also note that he was stripped of his citizenship after the war and only had it restored posthumously a century later by President Ford. > > In any case, I’d be in favor of re-naming each of those places for other (less traitorous) people. All of those installations were built in the south during the early part of the 20th century and named after prominent local military leaders from the areas they were built. In this case prominent does not equal good. Braxton Bragg sucked ass as a general and his namesake is the home of some of the elite units of the military. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-confederate-soldiers-count-for-memorial-day/659568/77 "2013-05-29T00:59:34Z")
> [@](#): > > For a start… > > USS Robert E. Lee, launched 18 December 1959. > > USS Stonewall Jackson, launched 30 November 1963. Not to mention the [USS Dixon](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Dixon), launched 20 June 1970 – and, for that matter, the [USS Hunley](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Hunley), launched 28 September 1961. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-confederate-soldiers-count-for-memorial-day/659568/78 "2013-05-29T01:02:03Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Do we honor Benedict Arnold? Would we honor the Rosenbergs? Robert Hanssen? Aldrich Ames? They are all Americans. Missed your edit. In order: Probably not, though I wouldn’t have a huge problem with it (if ever treason was justified, Arnold would have to be the test case, he was done wrong by the colonies over and over again, and he fought well for them for a time); no, espionage isn’t honorable combat; no, same reason; no, same reason. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-confederate-soldiers-count-for-memorial-day/659568/79 "2013-05-29T01:04:34Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > It’s not a handwave, it’s the truth. Fighting for the Confederacy is not the same as fighting for slavery. Yes, it was. That’s what the Confederacy was for. > [@Human\_Action](#): > > You seem unable or unwilling to separate the men from the cause (even such a varied cause as it was), but I am not. I’m not willing to just give someone a pass for fighting for pure evil, no. Fighting is not a good thing for its own sake. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-confederate-soldiers-count-for-memorial-day/659568/80 "2013-05-29T01:05:56Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > It is a rebuttal. “Our country,” for patriotic modern Americans, is not the twenty-odd unseceded states of the late-'61 Union. It is the whole thing. Yes, it’s the whole country, and those who fought in an army who fought _against_ the whole country should not be honored. > [@Human\_Action](#): > > Any exceptions for conscripts? Tell you what, put all the officers and volunteers of the Confederate army in unmarked mass graves or dump them in the ocean and tear down all public-sponsored monuments and memorials to Confederate officials and soldiers and institutions, and we’ll discuss and exception for the conscripts. > [@Human\_Action](#): > > Well, either they were Americans, and thus covered by a holiday that honors all Americans who died in the armed services, or they weren’t, in which case the Confederacy was a legally-valid entity and Reconstruction was based on a lie. You can’t have it both ways. Nope. False dichotomy. On memorial day, do we honor Americans who fought on the side of the Nazis, or defected to the Soviet Union and joined their military? We sure as hell don’t. Confederate soldiers were Americans, but their service in _a_ military was in a military at war against the United States. That’s not what we honor on Memorial Day. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-confederate-soldiers-count-for-memorial-day/659568.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-confederate-soldiers-count-for-memorial-day/659568.md?page=5)