# Do Confederate soldiers count for Memorial Day? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [May 28, 2013, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-confederate-soldiers-count-for-memorial-day/659568 "2013-05-28T18:56:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-confederate-soldiers-count-for-memorial-day/659568/101 "2013-05-29T03:01:24Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Of course it was. They just ignored the obvious because they didn’t want to change. Do you think that people doing things that are widely known to be wrong is a modern invention? Who gets to decide what’s “widely known” to be wrong, when there’s half the nation protesting that it isn’t wrong? > [@Der Tris](#): > > And so what? It’s called progress. If the people of the future aren’t better than us it’ll be disappointing, not horrifying. I condemn the people of the past as morally inferior because they were. How far back does this go? Do you condemn hunter-gatherers for their lack of elected, bi-cameral legislatures? > [@Der Trihs](#): > > As a rule, if your philosophy matches that of an evil Chaos God, you _might_ want to rethink it. It’s not my philosophy as such, I’ve just never seen a Memorial Day newscast that started “And today we honor America’s fallen servicemen…except the ones who killed Indians. And the ones who occupied the Philippines. And the ones who invaded Iraq, the second time. And the ones who took half of Mexico over. And the ones who took Japanese skulls as souvenirs. And the ones…” It’s typically kept pretty simple and universal. > [@Der Trihs](#): > > And I condemn them as genocidal slaveowning monsters when the subject comes up. If all American history is so twisted and evil, why celebrate any of it? > [@Der Trihs](#): > > The “logic” is that if we admit that slavery was evil, then we have to condemn the South for practicing it; that’s unacceptable to some people, so they end up trying to twist history to justify slavery. As I said, this sort of thing demonstrates why it’s wrong to do things like honor Confederate soldiers; it leads right to defending slavery. I admit that slavery was evil, that’s pretty simple to modern eyes. And actually, per the above, you have to condemn the entire United States for practicing it, since the entire nation did so at the time of the Revolution. The South had no monopoly on slavery, they were just last off the train due to their different material circumstances, not their inferior morality. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-confederate-soldiers-count-for-memorial-day/659568/102 "2013-05-29T03:01:29Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Dammit, I was about to ask that question! > > What about the Fort Hood shooter? If he’d been shot in action while murdering 13 US soldiers, would we memorialize him? What about Tories who fought against the American Revolution–do we honor?.. Or Americans who fought for the Kaiser, or Tokyo Rose, where’s their holiday? Just because the treason happened on US soil to protect slavery they get to share a holiday with my friend killed in Iraq? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-confederate-soldiers-count-for-memorial-day/659568/103 "2013-05-29T03:02:22Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > If you take this approach, the number of people in history that you can honor rapidly approaches zero. To our modern sensibilities, most of human history is cruel, blood-drenched, and greedy. We can either dismiss most people born before us as evil, or we can examine people and events in their proper context. The former is exceedingly vain and egotistical, the later allows us to conduct meaningful study of history. But neither approach you describe entails honoring the people. If you’re honoring them, you’re not examining them in their “proper” context. So if we want to be historians, we shouldn’t be honoring anyone. But if we want to find someone to honor, thanks, but I’ll go for the “don’t honor the fuckers defending slavers” option. And if that means I also can’t honor Indian killers, Crusaders, Conquistadores, witch burners, or the Golden Horde, somehow I’ll manage to live with the burden. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-confederate-soldiers-count-for-memorial-day/659568/104 "2013-05-29T03:03:48Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Then the Japanese officers, then the German, then the British, then the Indians…? How are they even relevant. Are there monuments and memorials sponsored by American governmental agencies to Japanese, Germans, and British who fought against the United States? So far as Indians are concerned, if you’re talking about American Indians/Native Americans, then I consider that a different situation. They didn’t commit treason against the United States. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-confederate-soldiers-count-for-memorial-day/659568/105 "2013-05-29T03:04:18Z")
> [@panaccione](#): > > Meaningful study of history and honor are two completely different and exclusive concepts. I can understand and accept why Confederates were the way they were, however looking at it through the modern lens it is still easy to see it for what it is. Traitors who were fighting for the right to own slaves. A concept that blatantly disregards the very foundation of our constitution that all men are created equal. That is not what they are being honored for. > [@panaccione](#): > > Honest question, and maybe I missed this earlier, but why honor The Confederacy? What are the best reasons? I don’t, there are no good reasons. I don’t need any Jefferson Davis statues or schools, though of course they exist. Honoring _the soldiers of_ the Confederacy, on the other hand? Because it’s only right to honor those who fight with bravery and honor and sacrifice their lives in battle. I’m sure it goes back to the need for a warrior caste in ancient times, but it’s still with us: you honor your fallen warriors. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-confederate-soldiers-count-for-memorial-day/659568/106 "2013-05-29T03:08:27Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Who gets to decide what’s “widely known” to be wrong, when there’s half the nation protesting that it isn’t wrong? When that half of the nation ties itself into knots denying that it’s wrong, that’s a good clue. They weren’t honestly mistaken, they went to enormous efforts building an edifice of of lies, denial and self delusion to convince themselves that so obviously _going against their own principles_ was right. > [@Human\_Action](#): > > How far back does this go? Do you condemn hunter-gatherers for their lack of elected, bi-cameral legislatures? They didn’t have the techniques, so no. > [@Human\_Action](#): > > If all American history is so twisted and evil, why celebrate any of it? I don’t. > [@Human\_Action](#): > > The South had no monopoly on slavery, they were just last off the train due to their different material circumstances, not their inferior morality. That’s just more making excuses for them. ---
**Author:** ![panaccione](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@panaccione](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panaccione)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-confederate-soldiers-count-for-memorial-day/659568/107 "2013-05-29T03:09:28Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Honoring _the soldiers of_ the Confederacy, on the other hand? Because it’s only right to honor those who fight with bravery and honor and sacrifice their lives in battle. I’m sure it goes back to the need for a warrior caste in ancient times, but it’s still with us: you honor your fallen warriors. So it’s like a hate the sin, but don’t hate the sinner thing? The problem I have is that with the benefit of hindsight, what is the point? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-confederate-soldiers-count-for-memorial-day/659568/108 "2013-05-29T03:09:34Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Because it’s only right to honor those who fight with bravery and honor and sacrifice their lives in battle. I’m sure it goes back to the need for a warrior caste in ancient times, but it’s still with us: you honor your fallen warriors. Not when they fought for evil. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-confederate-soldiers-count-for-memorial-day/659568/109 "2013-05-29T03:10:10Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Honoring _the soldiers of_ the Confederacy, on the other hand? Because it’s only right to honor those who fight with bravery and honor and sacrifice their lives in battle. As a blanket statement, no it’s not right to do that. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-confederate-soldiers-count-for-memorial-day/659568/110 "2013-05-29T03:11:49Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > But neither approach you describe entails honoring the people. If you’re honoring them, you’re not examining them in their “proper” context. Sure you are, because you’re honoring them for things that _we still value_, not the things we don’t. Slavery isn’t on that list, but honor and bravery are. As are the Enlightenment values that the Founding Fathers held, but fell well short of. You can acknowledge the wrongs and celebrate the rights, not choose to either whitewash the bad stuff or condemn all pre-right-now people as unworthy. Keep your mindset relative, instead of absolute, and you won’t go awry. > [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > So if we want to be historians, we shouldn’t be honoring anyone. But if we want to find someone to honor, thanks, but I’ll go for the “don’t honor the fuckers defending slavers” option. Who does make the cut? > [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > And if that means I also can’t honor Indian killers, Crusaders, Conquistadores, witch burners, or the Golden Horde, somehow I’ll manage to live with the burden. Again, not many folks left you can honor. Even Abe Lincoln was a racial separatist. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-confederate-soldiers-count-for-memorial-day/659568/111 "2013-05-29T03:15:17Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Sure you are, because you’re honoring them for things that _we still value_, not the things we don’t. Slavery isn’t on that list, but honor and bravery are. As are the Enlightenment values that the Founding Fathers held, but fell well short of. You can acknowledge the wrongs and celebrate the rights, not choose to either whitewash the bad stuff or condemn all pre-right-now people as unworthy. Except I see the exact opposite happen; in reality, once people start defending the “honor” of people who fought for slavery, they soon start defending slavery itself. As seen in this thread, with all the handwaving about how we can’t judge the slaveowners. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-confederate-soldiers-count-for-memorial-day/659568/112 "2013-05-29T03:16:55Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > When that half of the nation ties itself into knots denying that it’s wrong, that’s a good clue. They weren’t honestly mistaken, they went to enormous efforts building an edifice of of lies, denial and self delusion to convince themselves that so obviously _going against their own principles_ was right. Meaning that they thought they were right. > [@Der Trihs](#): > > I don’t. I can tell. I can’t imagine any American holidays holding much appeal for you, then. Many of pagan rituals co-opted by Christians, several are religious, and most of the rest refer to American history. > [@Der Trihs](#): > > That’s just more making excuses for them. That’s just the outcome of your logic. If admitting that slavery is evil means that we have to condemn the South for practicing it, why doesn’t that mean condemning the North for practicing it? ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-confederate-soldiers-count-for-memorial-day/659568/113 "2013-05-29T03:20:37Z")
> [@panaccione](#): > > So it’s like a hate the sin, but don’t hate the sinner thing? > > The problem I have is that with the benefit of hindsight, what is the point? If you don’t see the point, does that mean that you don’t feel the need to honor non-Confederate war dead on Memorial Day? > [@Der Trihs](#): > > Not when they fought for evil. > [@Acsenray](#): > > As a blanket statement, no it’s not right to do that. That’s what Memorial Day is. It is that blanket statement codified, whether you exclude Confederate soldiers or not, because either way you’re left with some unpleasant historical realities that are being glossed over because the holiday is about honoring the fallen, and nothing else. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-confederate-soldiers-count-for-memorial-day/659568/114 "2013-05-29T03:21:37Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Except I see the exact opposite happen; in reality, once people start defending the “honor” of people who fought for slavery, they soon start defending slavery itself. As seen in this thread, with all the handwaving about how we can’t judge the slaveowners. No one here has defended slavery, that’s preposterous. ---
**Author:** ![panaccione](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@panaccione](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panaccione)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-confederate-soldiers-count-for-memorial-day/659568/115 "2013-05-29T03:23:57Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > If you don’t see the point, does that mean that you don’t feel the need to honor non-Confederate war dead on Memorial Day? No. I can accept honoring the union since they were anti-slavery and were not traitors. Now, what is the point of honoring The Confederacy? ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-confederate-soldiers-count-for-memorial-day/659568/116 "2013-05-29T03:28:26Z")
> [@panaccione](#): > > No. I can accept honoring the union since they were anti-slavery and were not traitors. I’m not just talking about the Union here, Memorial Day covers all American servicemen. That includes Indian fighters, and the men who occupied the Philippines, among others. Should they be honored? > [@panaccione](#): > > Now, what is the point of honoring The Confederacy? You’ll have to find someone who does and ask them. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-confederate-soldiers-count-for-memorial-day/659568/117 "2013-05-29T03:37:48Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > I’m not just talking about the Union here, Memorial Day covers all American servicemen. That includes Indian fighters, and the men who occupied the Philippines, among others. Should they be honored?. Irrelevant question. Confederates might have been American and they might have been soldiers, but they were not American soldiers. So however you answer those other question, it doesn’t apply to them. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-confederate-soldiers-count-for-memorial-day/659568/118 "2013-05-29T03:39:45Z")
I vote no. ---
**Author:** ![panaccione](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@panaccione](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panaccione)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-confederate-soldiers-count-for-memorial-day/659568/119 "2013-05-29T03:42:19Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > You’ll have to find someone who does and ask them. There is no Confederacy without Confederate soldiers. You are simply moving the goalposts here. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-confederate-soldiers-count-for-memorial-day/659568/120 "2013-05-29T03:47:27Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Irrelevant question. Confederates might have been American and they might have been soldiers, but they were not American soldiers. So however you answer those other question, it doesn’t apply to them. It’s certainly relevant, if the issue is the Confederate soldiers’ moral failings. It can’t be their nationality, as they were Americans throughout the war. So, the basis for not wanting them honored is that they were in conflict with another group of Americans? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-confederate-soldiers-count-for-memorial-day/659568.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-confederate-soldiers-count-for-memorial-day/659568.md?page=7)