# Do Confederate soldiers count for Memorial Day? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [May 28, 2013, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-confederate-soldiers-count-for-memorial-day/659568 "2013-05-28T18:56:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-confederate-soldiers-count-for-memorial-day/659568/121 "2013-05-29T03:50:05Z")
> [@panaccione](#): > > There is no Confederacy without Confederate soldiers. You are simply moving the goalposts here. Hardly. I’ve been quite clear on this point. Should every Wehrmacht soldier have been put on trial at Nuremburg? If no, why not, if there’s no distinction to be made between soldiers fighting in good accord with the rules of war, and their civilian leadership? ---
**Author:** ![panaccione](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@panaccione](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panaccione)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-confederate-soldiers-count-for-memorial-day/659568/122 "2013-05-29T03:51:55Z")
Putting them on trial and executing them is a far cry from honoring them. In fact, they are pretty much complete opposites. I’m comfortable with finding a middle ground. I still see no good reason to honor The Confederacy. Which is what Memorial Day is all about. Actually, it desecrates the honor from the soldiers who are actually worthy. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-confederate-soldiers-count-for-memorial-day/659568/123 "2013-05-29T03:53:21Z")
> [@panaccione](#): > > Putting them on trial and executing them is a far cry from honoring them. In fact, they are pretty much complete opposites. I’m comfortable with finding a middle ground. Nice dodge. Is there a distinction drawn between civilian leaders and the military forces that serve under them? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-confederate-soldiers-count-for-memorial-day/659568/124 "2013-05-29T03:53:36Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Meaning that they thought they were right. Meaning that they went to great lengths to convince themselves they were right. Your argument pretty much means we can’t morally judge much of anyone, past or present, since very few people do evil without coming up with an excuse or rationalization of some kind. I suppose we should let everyone out of prison who’s smart enough to come up with an excuse for their actions, if that’s enough to absolve someone of blame. > [@Human\_Action](#): > > No one here has defended slavery, that’s preposterous. You _are_ doing so when you claim that we can’t judge them for being slavers because they had “different standards”. ---
**Author:** ![panaccione](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@panaccione](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panaccione)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-confederate-soldiers-count-for-memorial-day/659568/125 "2013-05-29T03:54:43Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Nice dodge. Is there a distinction drawn between civilian leaders and the military forces that serve under them? Of course. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-confederate-soldiers-count-for-memorial-day/659568/126 "2013-05-29T03:58:24Z")
> [@panaccione](#): > > Of course. So you see why “There is no Confederacy without Confederate soldiers” fails, yes? Because it’s ignoring exactly that principle. ---
**Author:** ![panaccione](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@panaccione](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panaccione)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-confederate-soldiers-count-for-memorial-day/659568/127 "2013-05-29T04:01:00Z")
What are you saying? That the civilians are compelled to fight in the war simply because their leaders make them? ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-confederate-soldiers-count-for-memorial-day/659568/128 "2013-05-29T04:02:24Z")
I can’t say I spend any time worrying about it but, if asked yes or no, I’d say no. They fought against the United States of America and Memorial Day (as far as I’m concerned) is about observing those who fought and died for the US of A. Whatever their personal conviction may have been, I don’t consider them US soldiers nor deserving of remembrance along side US soldiers. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-confederate-soldiers-count-for-memorial-day/659568/129 "2013-05-29T04:03:14Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Meaning that they went to great lengths to convince themselves they were right. What’s the difference? > [@Der Trihs](#): > > Your argument pretty much means we can’t morally judge much of anyone, past or present, since very few people do evil without coming up with an excuse or rationalization of some kind. I suppose we should let everyone out of prison who’s smart enough to come up with an excuse for their actions, if that’s enough to absolve someone of blame. No, feel free to morally judge your contemporaries. Condemning Robert E. Lee or George Washington or Henry VIII or Richard the Lionhearted for falling short of a moral code _that didn’t exist when they were alive_ is entirely different. > [@Der Trihs](#): > > You _are_ doing so when you claim that we can’t judge them for being slavers because they had “different standards”. That is not a defense of slavery by any reasonable definition. ---
**Author:** ![panaccione](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@panaccione](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panaccione)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-confederate-soldiers-count-for-memorial-day/659568/130 "2013-05-29T04:11:35Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > No, feel free to morally judge your contemporaries. Condemning Robert E. Lee or George Washington or Henry VIII or Richard the Lionhearted for falling short of a moral code _that didn’t exist when they were alive_ is entirely different. There is no context where slavery is acceptable. A person is a person. That is plain to see. Locking them up in chains and forcing them to do your will is wrong. It is one of the most heinous crimes against humanity that people are capable of. I have no doubt they knew what they were doing. They just didn’t care. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-confederate-soldiers-count-for-memorial-day/659568/131 "2013-05-29T04:12:42Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > What’s the difference? You don’t see any difference between simply being wrong and between manufacturing excuses? :dubious: > [@Human\_Action](#): > > No, feel free to morally judge your contemporaries. Condemning Robert E. Lee or George Washington or Henry VIII or Richard the Lionhearted for falling short of a moral code _that didn’t exist when they were alive_ is entirely different. Except they violated a code that existed at the time, and well before. They violated their own principles; they just went to a great deal of trouble to try to handwave it away as not counting. > [@Human\_Action](#): > > That is not a defense of slavery by any reasonable definition. I disagree. You are defending their defense of slavery, which is defending slavery. Just at one remove. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-confederate-soldiers-count-for-memorial-day/659568/132 "2013-05-29T04:35:48Z")
> [@panaccione](#): > > There is no context where slavery is acceptable. So _your_ Memorial Day excludes soldiers of the Revolution, and 1812, and the Mexican War, and the early Indian wars? All were fought by and for a United States that condoned and relied upon slavery. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-confederate-soldiers-count-for-memorial-day/659568/133 "2013-05-29T04:40:29Z")
My direct ancestor fought for the North at Gettysburg, and lived thank goodness or I’d not be here now. But if he _had_ been killed, we’d be supposed to honor the side that killed him? I don’t think so. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-confederate-soldiers-count-for-memorial-day/659568/134 "2013-05-29T04:42:24Z")
Let’s settle this. Memorial Day was first established in 1868, to honor **Union** war dead, according to [General Orders No.11 of The Grand Army of the Republic](http://www.usmemorialday.org/order11.html): > [@](#): > > The 30th day of May, 1868, is designated for the purpose of strewing with flowers or otherwise decorating the graves of comrades who died in defense of their country during the late rebellion… > > We are organized, comrades, as our regulations tell us, for the purpose among other things, “of preserving and strengthening those kind and fraternal feelings which have bound together the soldiers, sailors, and marines who united to suppress the late rebellion.” What can aid more to assure this result than cherishing tenderly the memory of our heroic dead, who made their breasts a barricade between **our country and its foes**?.. It could not be clearer that the Confederacy and its soldiers were “our foes” and were not included in this order. [The same site says the Confederate states all refused to designate that date as a Memorial Day for their own soldiers until after WWII](http://www.usmemorialday.org/backgrnd.html). [By statute, 36 USC § 116 (according to Cornell Law School)](http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/36/116), citizenship and military service are both irrelevant. The language says, > [@](#): > > (1) it is essential to remember and renew the legacy of Memorial Day, which was established in 1868 to pay tribute to individuals who have made the ultimate sacrifice **in service to the United States** and their families; > “(2) greater strides must be made to demonstrate appreciation for those **loyal people of the United States** whose values, represented by their sacrifices, are critical to the future of the United States; … As far as I can tell, those are the only specifications in law about who should be remembered on Memorial Day. If you can find something more specific, I invite you to find it and post a cite to that effect. Question: Did Confederate soldiers give their lives in the service of the United States? Answer: No. Question: Were Confederate soldiers loyal to the United States? Answer: No. Questions: Were they Americans? Were they soldiers? Answer: Irrelevant. ---
**Author:** ![panaccione](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@panaccione](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panaccione)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-confederate-soldiers-count-for-memorial-day/659568/135 "2013-05-29T04:47:20Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > So _your_ Memorial Day excludes soldiers of the Revolution, and 1812, and the Mexican War, and the early Indian wars? All were fought by and for a United States that condoned and relied upon slavery. That certainly complicates things. However, those wars were not about the right to own slaves, correct? ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-confederate-soldiers-count-for-memorial-day/659568/136 "2013-05-29T05:50:05Z")
Leaning no. If the American Civil War was actually a civil war, there might be a case for it, but the Rebs were fighting to leave the United States (and indirectly fighting to preserve slavery to boot). ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-confederate-soldiers-count-for-memorial-day/659568/137 "2013-05-29T06:13:31Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > That is the spirit of Memorial Day, yes: honor those that fought, never mind the why or the for whom, both are questions with some unsavory answers in U.S. military history. False. Memorial Day is to honor people who died while serving in the United States Armed Forces. Not Americans who died fighting in any armed force, but specifically people who died fighting in the United States Armed Forces, whether or not they were Americans (yes, non-Americans can and have served in our military). Just stop now with your ridiculous “presentism” arguments and your defense of the proponents of slavery; your arguments do not have facts behind them. Just to put the icing on the cake, [here is the original proclamation for Decoration Dayissued by Maj. Gen. John A. Logan, head of the Grand Army of the Republic, a veterans organization, in 1868 (I’ve helpfully bolded the important parts): > [@](#): > > The 30th day of May, 1868, is designated **for the purpose of strewing with flowers or otherwise decorating the graves of comrades who died in defense of their country during the late rebellion** , and whose bodies now lie in almost every city, village, and hamlet church-yard in the land. In this observance no form of ceremony is prescribed, but posts and comrades will in their own way arrange such fitting services and testimonials of respect as circumstances may permit. > > **We are organized, comrades, as our regulations tell us, for the purpose among other things, “of preserving and strengthening those kind and fraternal feelings which have bound together the soldiers, sailors, and marines who united to suppress the late rebellion.”** What can aid more to assure this result than **cherishing tenderly the memory of our heroic dead, who made their breasts a barricade between our country and its foes**? **Their soldier lives were the reveille of freedom to a race in chains, and their deaths the tattoo of rebellious tyranny in arms**. We should guard their graves with sacred vigilance. **All that the consecrated wealth and taste of the nation can add to their adornment and security is but a fitting tribute to the memory of her slain defenders**. ]([General Order 11 | May 5th 1868 | Memorial Day Order](http://www.usmemorialday.org/order11.html)) ETA: Scooped just two posts before by **Boyo Jim**! ---
**Author:** ![Baker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bb73d2/32.png) [@Baker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baker)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 9:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-confederate-soldiers-count-for-memorial-day/659568/138 "2013-05-29T09:19:25Z")
In the little cemetery out in the country where I will be buried there are a number of Union veterans and one Confederate. One year, when flags were placed on the graves of all veterans of any war, this guy had a US flag planted on his grave. Granted, he was born a US citizen, and died as one but in between he fought for the Confederacy. He was the father of a great-aunt by marriage of mine, with no relatives left to honor the grave, so we took up the US flag and put a Confederate one on the grave. After all, this is a guy who named his son "R. E. Lee (Surname), and we figured that’s the way he would have wanted it. ---
**Author:** ![drewtwo99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d07c76/32.png) [@drewtwo99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewtwo99)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 9:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-confederate-soldiers-count-for-memorial-day/659568/139 "2013-05-29T09:38:13Z")
After reading this thread I’d like to change my vote to hell no. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 10:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-confederate-soldiers-count-for-memorial-day/659568/140 "2013-05-29T10:57:26Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Who does make the cut? People who worked to make the world better for other people. Louis Pasteur, Harriet Tubman, Susan B. Anthony, for example. “Bravery”? History is rife with suicidally brave killers. They’re a dime a dozen on the ground, and bravery in the name of killing other people is not a virtue by itself. “Honor”? If your system of honor means you’ll kill other people in order to keep a third group enslaved, that’s not something I still value. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-confederate-soldiers-count-for-memorial-day/659568.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-confederate-soldiers-count-for-memorial-day/659568.md?page=8)