# Do Confederate soldiers count for Memorial Day? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [May 28, 2013, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-confederate-soldiers-count-for-memorial-day/659568 "2013-05-28T18:56:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 11:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-confederate-soldiers-count-for-memorial-day/659568/141 "2013-05-29T11:13:18Z")
> [@panaccione](#): > > What are you saying? That the civilians are compelled to fight in the war simply because their leaders make them? The job of the common soldier is to fight according to the rules of war. They don’t make policy, they just fight. And yes, between conscription, allegiance to the state over the nation, and the honor culture, the Confederate soldiers were compelled to fight for their leaders. > [@panaccione](#): > > There is no context where slavery is acceptable. A person is a person. That is plain to see. Locking them up in chains and forcing them to do your will is wrong. It is one of the most heinous crimes against humanity that people are capable of. I have no doubt they knew what they were doing. They just didn’t care. It wasn’t “plain to see” for the vast majority of human history. Slavery wasn’t invented by eleven Southern states, I’m afraid. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 11:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-confederate-soldiers-count-for-memorial-day/659568/142 "2013-05-29T11:23:05Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > You don’t see any difference between simply being wrong and between manufacturing excuses? :dubious: Clearly, to us, they were in the wrong. I find your claim that they _knew_ they were in the wrong, because you find their reasoning dubious (of course you do, you disagree with the thing it is defending), rather suspect. With that logic, you can dismiss any beliefs ever held by anyone as “manufactured excuses”. > [@Der Trihs](#): > > Except they violated a code that existed at the time, and well before. They violated their own principles; they just went to a great deal of trouble to try to handwave it away as not counting. The “all men are created equal” code, if that is what you are referring to, wasn’t actually being practiced anywhere in the country. Several states restricted the vote to Christians. Free black men could only vote in New Hampshire, Massachusetts, New York (though only property-owning free blacks, whites had this requirement waived), and North Carolina. The idea was an ideal that no state actually practiced. > [@Der Trihs](#): > > I disagree. You are defending their defense of slavery, which is defending slavery. Just at one remove. By stating that they sincerely thought they were in the right, though they were not? How is that “defending their defense”? Stating that their defense exists? ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 11:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-confederate-soldiers-count-for-memorial-day/659568/143 "2013-05-29T11:25:57Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > Let’s settle this. Memorial Day was first established in 1868, to honor **Union** war dead, according to [General Orders No.11 of The Grand Army of the Republic](http://www.usmemorialday.org/order11.html): > > It could not be clearer that the Confederacy and its soldiers were “our foes” and were not included in this order. [The same site says the Confederate states all refused to designate that date as a Memorial Day for their own soldiers until after WWII](http://www.usmemorialday.org/backgrnd.html). > > [By statute, 36 USC § 116 (according to Cornell Law School)](http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/36/116), citizenship and military service are both irrelevant. The language says, > > As far as I can tell, those are the only specifications in law about who should be remembered on Memorial Day. If you can find something more specific, I invite you to find it and post a cite to that effect. > > Question: Did Confederate soldiers give their lives in the service of the United States? > Answer: No. > > Question: Were Confederate soldiers loyal to the United States? > Answer: No. > > Questions: Were they Americans? Were they soldiers? > Answer: Irrelevant. Where are you getting that statutory language? Your Cornell link takes me to this: > [@](#): > > (a) Designation.— The last Monday in May is Memorial Day. > > (b) Proclamation.— The President is requested to issue each year a proclamation— > (1) calling on the people of the United States to observe Memorial Day by praying, according to their individual religious faith, for permanent peace; > > (2) designating a period of time on Memorial Day during which the people may unite in prayer for a permanent peace; > > (3) calling on the people of the United States to unite in prayer at that time; and > > (4) calling on the media to join in observing Memorial Day and the period of prayer. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 11:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-confederate-soldiers-count-for-memorial-day/659568/144 "2013-05-29T11:33:59Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > False. Memorial Day is to honor people who died while serving in the United States Armed Forces. Not Americans who died fighting in any armed force, but specifically people who died fighting in the United States Armed Forces, whether or not they were Americans (yes, non-Americans can and have served in our military). > > Just stop now with your ridiculous “presentism” arguments and your defense of the proponents of slavery; your arguments do not have facts behind them. > > Just to put the icing on the cake, [here is the original proclamation for Decoration Dayissued by Maj. Gen. John A. Logan, head of the Grand Army of the Republic, a veterans organization, in 1868 (I’ve helpfully bolded the important parts):](http://www.usmemorialday.org/order11.html) > > ETA: Scooped just two posts before by **Boyo Jim**! That’s a proclamation by the head of a veteran’s organization. It’s no more binding on the meaning of a federal holiday than a proclamation I might make. The only statute establishing the holiday that’s been presented is 36 USC 116, which only speaks of praying for peace. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 11:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-confederate-soldiers-count-for-memorial-day/659568/145 "2013-05-29T11:37:50Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > People who worked to make the world better for other people. Louis Pasteur, Harriet Tubman, Susan B. Anthony, for example. “Bravery”? History is rife with suicidally brave killers. They’re a dime a dozen on the ground, and bravery in the name of killing other people is not a virtue by itself. “Honor”? If your system of honor means you’ll kill other people in order to keep a third group enslaved, that’s not something I still value. That bitter racist, Susan B. Anthony? Anyway, note that your standard precludes having a Memorial Day, since that entails honoring the fallen soldiers of wars that did not make the world better for other people, at all. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 11:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-confederate-soldiers-count-for-memorial-day/659568/146 "2013-05-29T11:52:27Z")
They were traitors who didn’t fight for anyone’s freedom, they fought for the continuation of slavery. ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-confederate-soldiers-count-for-memorial-day/659568/147 "2013-05-29T12:27:03Z")
If we include CSA soldiers in Memorial Day, can we have a day for Americans who were also killed by the US, but not to preserve slavery but just the opposite: because they advocated decent pay and working conditions? Actually there is [just such a day,](http://www.iww.org/en/history/library/misc/origins_of_mayday) but its held in Moscow’s Red Square ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-confederate-soldiers-count-for-memorial-day/659568/148 "2013-05-29T13:08:04Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Leaning no. If the American Civil War was actually a civil war, there might be a case for it, but the Rebs were fighting to leave the United States Not sure I follow you. Wiki [sez](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_war) _“The aim of one side may be to take control of the country or a region, to achieve independence for a region, or to change government policies”_, the next-to-last of which seems to qualify. You say “there might be a case for it” had it actually been a civil war. So if they’d donned those grey uniforms and started marching for Washington – plotting to put Jefferson Davis in the White House, and shooting anyone who got in their way – they could maybe deserve mention on Memorial Day? ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-confederate-soldiers-count-for-memorial-day/659568/149 "2013-05-29T13:09:51Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Meaning that they thought they were right. Well, if you read the literature, it becomes painfully clear, through the decades of twisted self-justification and heated denials, that (by and large) they _didn’t_ “think they were right.” They _wanted to be seen as_ doing right, but mostly they wanted to keep doing it, and never mind right or wrong. One of the reasons the slavery debate was so heated was the deep strain of anger and defensiveness among the slaveholding classes that shows through when we read what they themselves wrote. Regarding Anwar al-Awlaki: > [@Human\_Action](#): > > Well, let’s see: he wasn’t engaged in honorable combat, but instead plotting terror attacks. He was party to a foreign side of a conflict, not a civil one. I guess that depends. Plenty of Confederate activity would be considered terror attacks these days, [right from the start](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elmer_Ellsworth#Death). And whether al-Awlaki counts as “foreign” seems murky to me; was he not primarily promoting _religious_ conflict, not nationalism? > [@Loach](#): > > Yes, there is a [Fort Lee](http://www.lee.army.mil/). You may have also heard about Fort Hood I’ll contend that Hood may have killed more Confederate than Union soldiers, and thus inadvertently be eligible for Memorial Day honors. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-confederate-soldiers-count-for-memorial-day/659568/150 "2013-05-29T13:24:21Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > I’ll contend that Hood may have killed more Confederate than Union soldiers, and thus inadvertently be eligible for Memorial Day honors. 😉 By that standard Braxton Bragg may have deserved the Medal of Honor for his role in shortening the war in the west. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-confederate-soldiers-count-for-memorial-day/659568/151 "2013-05-29T13:30:47Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > Well, if you read the literature, it becomes painfully clear, through the decades of twisted self-justification and heated denials, that (by and large) they _didn’t_ “think they were right.” They _wanted to be seen as_ doing right, but mostly they wanted to keep doing it, and never mind right or wrong. One of the reasons the slavery debate was so heated was the deep strain of anger and defensiveness among the slaveholding classes that shows through when we read what they themselves wrote. Sure, they reacted with anger and defensiveness. The whole secession was a show of anger and defensiveness. “I should be able to keep doing this” is a position all its own, whether cloaked in states rights or the supposed right to secede or not, and they certainly thought they were right about _that_, and many thought that slavery was right in itself as well. > [@Sailboat](#): > > I guess that depends. Plenty of Confederate activity would be considered terror attacks these days, [right from the start](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elmer_Ellsworth#Death). Union activity as well, Sherman’s March to the Sea wouldn’t be well-recieved if the U.S. Army did it today. Also, Ellsworth’s killer, James W. Jackson, was not a Confederates soldier. > [@Sailboat](#): > > And whether al-Awlaki counts as “foreign” seems murky to me; was he not primarily promoting _religious_ conflict, not nationalism? I didn’t say he was foreign, but that organization he was affiliated with was, in a way that the Confederacy was not. While proclaiming themselves a separate American nation, the Confederates were nonetheless American. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-confederate-soldiers-count-for-memorial-day/659568/152 "2013-05-29T13:32:26Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > That’s a proclamation by the head of a veteran’s organization. It’s no more binding on the meaning of a federal holiday than a proclamation I might make. > > The only statute establishing the holiday that’s been presented is 36 USC 116, which only speaks of praying for peace. No, you’re wrong, still and again. I’ll once more helpfully bold the important parts. [ > [@36 USC 116](#): > > "SEC. 2. FINDINGS. "Congress finds that - "(1) **it is essential to remember and renew the legacy of Memorial Day, which was established in 1868 to pay tribute to individuals who have made the ultimate sacrifice in service to the United States** and their families; "(2) greater strides must be made **to demonstrate appreciation for those loyal people of the United States whose values, represented by their sacrifices** , are critical to the future of the United States; "(3) the Federal Government has a responsibility to raise awareness of and respect for the national heritage, and to encourage citizens to dedicate themselves to the values and principles **for which those heroes of the United States died** ; "(4) the relevance of Memorial Day must be made more apparent to present and future generations of people of the United States through local and national observances and ongoing activities; "(5) in House Concurrent Resolution 302, agreed to May 25, 2000, Congress called on the people of the United States, in a symbolic act of unity, to observe a National Moment of Remembrance **to honor the men and women of the United States who died in the pursuit of freedom and peace** ; " ]([http://us-code.vlex.com/vid/sec-memorial-day-19229580](http://us-code.vlex.com/vid/sec-memorial-day-19229580)) You are wrong. Memorial Day is now and has always been about honoring people who died in service to the United States. Confederate soldiers did no such thing so fuck them. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-confederate-soldiers-count-for-memorial-day/659568/153 "2013-05-29T13:38:55Z")
Oh, come on. This is goofy. Honoring Confederate dead? They were in revolt _against the United States_! Are we supposed to be honoring the Indians who died resisting American annexation, too? What about the Branch Davidians and The Order? They died bravely resisting the US government as well. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-confederate-soldiers-count-for-memorial-day/659568/154 "2013-05-29T13:41:48Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Union activity as well, Sherman’s March to the Sea wouldn’t be well-recieved if the U.S. Army did it today. It wasn’t then, either; it was a PR nightmare. Several _northern_ papers condemned the march while it was happening, so much so that Sherman banned reporters from his presence. [QUOTE= William T. Sherman, 1864] If I had my choice I would kill every reporter in the world, but I am sure we would be getting reports from Hell before breakfast. [/quote] ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-confederate-soldiers-count-for-memorial-day/659568/155 "2013-05-29T13:42:26Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > No, you’re wrong, still and again. I’ll once more helpfully bold the important parts. > > [url=[http://us-code.vlex.com/vid/sec-memorial-day-19229580](http://us-code.vlex.com/vid/sec-memorial-day-19229580)] > > You are wrong. Memorial Day is now and has always been about honoring people who died in service to the United States. Confederate soldiers did no such thing so fuck them. That is not 36 USC 116, that’s from the National Moment of Remembrance, Pub. L. 106-579, of **Dec. 28, 2000**. You’re confusing it with the actual statute that created Memorial Day as a federal holiday. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-confederate-soldiers-count-for-memorial-day/659568/156 "2013-05-29T14:05:43Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > That is not 36 USC 116, that’s from the National Moment of Remembrance, Pub. L. 106-579, of **Dec. 28, 2000**. You’re confusing it with the actual statute that created Memorial Day as a federal holiday. Do you agree or disagree that Memorial Day was originally known as Decoration Day? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-confederate-soldiers-count-for-memorial-day/659568/157 "2013-05-29T14:11:37Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > That is not 36 USC 116, that’s from the National Moment of Remembrance, Pub. L. 106-579, of **Dec. 28, 2000**. You’re confusing it with the actual statute that created Memorial Day as a federal holiday. It makes pretty clear what the Congress in 2000 thought Memorial Day was for. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-confederate-soldiers-count-for-memorial-day/659568/158 "2013-05-29T14:12:11Z")
Exactly my point, **Ascenray** ; thank you. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-confederate-soldiers-count-for-memorial-day/659568/159 "2013-05-29T14:17:45Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Where are you getting that statutory language? Your Cornell link takes me to this: Look under the “Notes” tab above the language. It includes later revisions of the statute. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-confederate-soldiers-count-for-memorial-day/659568/160 "2013-05-29T14:20:28Z")
Do we celebrate and remember the Nazi soldiers who killed Americans, or the Japanese kamikaze pilots, or the British redcoats? Confederate soldiers belong in that group, not with real Americans [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-confederate-soldiers-count-for-memorial-day/659568.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-confederate-soldiers-count-for-memorial-day/659568.md?page=9)