# Do conservatives think there is something intrinsically good about gasoline/fossil fuel? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [June 15, 2022, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-conservatives-think-there-is-something-intrinsically-good-about-gasoline-fossil-fuel/966254 "2022-06-15T19:23:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![E-DUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/e-dub/32/403_2.png) [@E-DUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-DUB)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2022, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-conservatives-think-there-is-something-intrinsically-good-about-gasoline-fossil-fuel/966254/101 "2022-06-17T00:20:25Z")
Hydrogen may be more detonatable, but if the gas tank leaks the gas flows onto the ground. If a hydrogen tank leaks, the hydrogen flows up into the sky and is less of a threat. Look at the pictures of the Hindenburg and see how bad it looks and then realize that 64% of passengers and crew survived. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2022, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-conservatives-think-there-is-something-intrinsically-good-about-gasoline-fossil-fuel/966254/102 "2022-06-17T00:21:43Z")
> [@Esprise\_Me](#): > > And zooming way out, it’s not such a bad thing to have some people in a society who are a little afraid of change, a little reluctant to throw out the old, even when the old comes with significant problems. We can’t dig in our heels forever and refuse all change. But we also shouldn’t charge blindly ahead without planning for the consequences of those changes. Absolutely; we need conservatives. Problem is there are precious few of them around any more. Now all we have is Republicans, which are anything but, and so we Democrats have to be both the liberals and the conservatives. And frankly, we suck at being conservative. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2022, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-conservatives-think-there-is-something-intrinsically-good-about-gasoline-fossil-fuel/966254/103 "2022-06-17T00:25:43Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > To be honest, I can’t think of any change whatsoever that would qualify. > > At absolute minimum, if there’s change, somebody’s going to have to do something differently. Which is, for those people who don’t want to, a drawback. > > You’re setting an entirely impossible standard. I can’t think of any such change either. I didn’t attack the hypothetical. **Velocity** wrote painless and hassle-free. If I am not mistaken, he once wrote an OP to the effect of, if everybody’s needs were met and everybody got along nicely and there was literally no negative effect of wealth disparity, would liberals still have a problem with wealth disparity? Or that may have been another member. I took this thread as being in that vein. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2022, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-conservatives-think-there-is-something-intrinsically-good-about-gasoline-fossil-fuel/966254/104 "2022-06-17T00:30:04Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Absolutely; we need conservatives. Problem is there are precious few of them around any more. Now all we have is Republicans, which are anything but, and so we Democrats have to be both the liberals and the conservatives. Exactly right. In the rightward-shifting American political landscape, Democrats have moved to the right (Obama was remarkably conservative) while Republicans have moved into the lunatic asylum.\* Their idol is now a traitorous unhinged orange shit-stain who threatens the foundations of democracy itself. \* Credit to Bill Maher. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2022, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-conservatives-think-there-is-something-intrinsically-good-about-gasoline-fossil-fuel/966254/105 "2022-06-17T00:34:47Z")
> [@Esprise\_Me](#): > > which means you have to plan ahead with your overnight charging at home. You don’t _have_ to. It saves a few minutes on the road, if you remember, but it’s not necessary. And “planning” in this case means taking out your phone and sliding the 80% to 100% on the charge graph. > [@Esprise\_Me](#): > > If I had to evacuate for a hurricane or tsunami warning, or flee an abusive partner in the middle of the night, or cross state lines for a medical procedure and get back before my next shift so I don’t get fired and and end up homeless, I think I’d rather do it in my dinosaur-burning Mazda. Having an 80+% charge at the beginning of every day is a distinct advantage here. I can make it 250 miles to pretty much anywhere at all times. With a gas car, I might be unlucky and be at 1/8 tank. If there’s an emergency, gas stations might be packed or even closed. Road trips are slower in an EV, though the difference is shrinking. Most Teslas can go from LA to Sacramento with one stop, though it sounds like you went a bit farther than that. I’m not sure when you went, but Tesla is installing huge arrays of the latest 250 kW chargers along I-5. You may have only used some of the older, slower ones. I am surprised that you felt the stops left you more tired. For me, it’s the opposite–20-30 minutes is enough to use the bathroom, stretch my legs, and grab a snack. I’m more refreshed at the end even if it actually takes longer. At any rate, there’s nothing wrong with this form of conservatism. You aren’t burning gas to own the libs and you don’t seem to be in denial about climate change. Maybe the current batch of EVs aren’t right for you, but presumably you’ll reevaluate your options when they present themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Esprise\_Me](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprise_me/32/2947_2.png) [@Esprise\_Me](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprise_Me)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2022, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-conservatives-think-there-is-something-intrinsically-good-about-gasoline-fossil-fuel/966254/106 "2022-06-17T00:38:45Z")
Yeah, it’s gotten muddy. Incidentally, the family friend who sold my mom her Tesla (IIRC he had bought it for his grown daughter, but she kept having kids so needed something bigger) is one of those classical conservatives. He voted Republican in every election from the age of 18 until the year 2016, when he just couldn’t take it anymore and jumped ship. But in any case, the thread title names conservatives, with a lower-case c, not Republicans, so… ETA @DrStrangelove yeah it’s a used first-gen Tesla. I’m glad to hear they’re getting better. I still think Elon Musk is a twit but I’ll hold my nose and make him richer if it’ll help save the planet, once I’m confident it’s a viable option for me. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2022, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-conservatives-think-there-is-something-intrinsically-good-about-gasoline-fossil-fuel/966254/107 "2022-06-17T00:40:41Z")
I drive a small car with very little range (less than 250 miles on a full tank). It gets really good mileage. I am the target audience for an electric vehicle, except that they cost more than I am willing to pay. When the price goes down, I’ll get one. I’m sure my next car will be one. I’m definitely not a conservative, but I used to be one, and electric cars have always been attractive to me. I would love to not have to fuel up a vehicle with gas or deal with fumes and noise. Then again, I’m an IT professional and by nature new gadgets and technological innovations are appealing to me, regardless of politics. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2022, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-conservatives-think-there-is-something-intrinsically-good-about-gasoline-fossil-fuel/966254/108 "2022-06-17T00:48:03Z")
> [@E-DUB](#): > > Hydrogen may be more detonatable, but if the gas tank leaks the gas flows onto the ground. If a hydrogen tank leaks, the hydrogen flows up into the sky and is less of a threat. Look at the pictures of the Hindenburg and see how bad it looks and then realize that 64% of passengers and crew survived. Well, it “flows up into the sky” if it is unconstrained. However, you’ll note that many people park their vehicles inside of enclosed and underground garages, in which case hydrogen can collect. Hydrogen has a wide concentration range where it is detonable and even where it won’t detonate it will burn energetically with any oxidizer. Hydrogen is an exceedingly dangerous fuel and extreme procedures are used in handling it for space launch vehicles which is why you don’t see it being used for new and proposed space launch vehicle boost stages (although it is still being used for high performance exoatmospheric upper stages where the specific impulse advantages of hydrogen override the difficulties and hazards of it). As a ground transportation fuel it has so many deficiencies and, aside from not directly generating carbon emissions, so few benefits that only three companies are still pursuing hydrogen fuel cell vehicles and then only because of government subsidies and tax advantages for doing so. Literally nobody in the automotive industry believes that hydrogen-fueled vehicles are the future of ground transportation. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2022, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-conservatives-think-there-is-something-intrinsically-good-about-gasoline-fossil-fuel/966254/109 "2022-06-17T01:06:00Z")
> [@Esprise\_Me](#): > > ETA @DrStrangelove yeah it’s a used first-gen Tesla Teslas have improved immensely since the first-gen models. Supercharger time especially has improved, as well as the range. That’s not to say they aren’t decent cars, but they certainly came with more caveats than the latest batch. You are welcome and even encouraged to think of Musk as a twit, but keep in mind: - Volkswagen and other automakers lied for years about their diesel emissions–flat out cheating on the results–and dozens or perhaps hundreds of people died because of it. Some of the responsible parties went to prison, but ultimately they paid a very small cost for what amounts to mass murder. - All established automakers and oil companies have been either outright lying or funding disinformation campaigns when it comes to climate change and emissions requirements. By delaying action on climate change, the campaigns have done immense damage and will indirectly cost millions of lives and probably displace hundreds of millions. They aren’t the only responsible parties, but they bear a huge burden. Which isn’t to say that you shouldn’t buy, say, one of VW’s latest EVs. Ultimately, it comes down to what they are doing today (and to their credit, VW is now taking electrification seriously). But if you really are taking the behavior of leadership into account… some nasty tweets should _probably_ be near the bottom of the list of relevant factors. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2022, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-conservatives-think-there-is-something-intrinsically-good-about-gasoline-fossil-fuel/966254/110 "2022-06-17T01:27:03Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > > [@steronz](#): > > > > Unless you consider “better for the environment” to be an intrinsic quality of the product. > > Please remember that the conservative definition of “better” is always “better for my individual needs, right now, in this transitory moment.” Nothing else matters (unless there’s an opportunity to make someone else miserable with no consequences). In all fairness, I need to drive to work now (not really, but lets pretend I drive to work like most Americans). Climate change and peak oil sounds like a “people 50-100 years into the future” problem to deal with. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2022, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-conservatives-think-there-is-something-intrinsically-good-about-gasoline-fossil-fuel/966254/111 "2022-06-17T01:45:28Z")
> [@Esprise\_Me](#): > > Man. This thread has engendered in this liberal more sympathy Not quoting the whole thing, because it’s long: but, @Esprise_Me, that was a fantastic post. > [@Chronos](#): > > we need conservatives. Problem is there are precious few of them around any more. Now all we have is Republicans, which are anything but Unfortunately, this is also true. There are still some actual conservatives going under that name. But the Republican Party’s been stolen from them; and all too many of them didn’t try to stop it. I keep thinking of [this story](https://www3.uwsp.edu/cnr-ap/UWEXLakes/Documents/programs/lakeleaders/crew7/greenlake_may_2008/the_childrens_story_becken_presentation.pdf). Now that reads to me as having been written by a conservative, afraid of the foreigner, afraid of the Communists. But it works the other way around, too. You tell people bit by bit what they think they believe already, but with a twist to it; and you wrap it in the flag, and tell them all they’re entitled to a piece of it – and way too many will follow down that twist without ever seeing how twisted it is. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2022, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-conservatives-think-there-is-something-intrinsically-good-about-gasoline-fossil-fuel/966254/112 "2022-06-17T02:03:05Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Climate change and peak oil sounds like a “people 50-100 years into the future” problem to deal with. It was a 50 years from now problem, 70 years ago. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2022, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-conservatives-think-there-is-something-intrinsically-good-about-gasoline-fossil-fuel/966254/113 "2022-06-17T03:17:51Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > Nuclear fission is a good baseload energy supply, suitable for generating power when the sun isn’t shining and the wind isn’t blowing, but the advocates who promote it as being absolutely safe, completely non-polluting, and net zero carbon emission are glossing over a lot of real issues. Nuclear fission should be one part of a total energy portfolio that includes the cheaply and easily deployed renewables as well as synthetic hydrocarbons from net neutral sources, all balanced to allow a transition from unsustainable fossil hydrocarbon energy without crashing the economy. You can say the same thing about lithium mining and recycling. And wind and solar power don’t recycle well. The idea that deserts can’t be used for nuclear storage is nonsense on a grand scale. We store onsite now so it’s not much of a challenge to build containment centers for nuclear waste in desert locations. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2022, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-conservatives-think-there-is-something-intrinsically-good-about-gasoline-fossil-fuel/966254/114 "2022-06-17T03:21:43Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > and dozens or perhaps hundreds of people died because of it I call shenanigans on that statement. And I’m not defending diesel, I look forward to an electric car. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2022, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-conservatives-think-there-is-something-intrinsically-good-about-gasoline-fossil-fuel/966254/115 "2022-06-17T03:55:53Z")
> **[Study: Volkswagen’s excess emissions will lead to 1,200 premature deaths in...](https://news.mit.edu/2017/volkswagen-emissions-premature-deaths-europe-0303)** > > A new MIT study finds excess emissions generated by Volkswagen cars sold in Germany, will likely cause 1,200 premature deaths throughout Europe. The most affected countries include Germany, Poland, France, Czech Republic. > **[Study: Volkswagen’s emissions cheat to cause 60 premature deaths in U.S.](https://news.mit.edu/2015/volkswagen-emissions-cheat-cause-60-premature-deaths-1029)** > > Volkswagen’s use of software to evade emissions standards in more than 482,000 diesel vehicles sold in the U.S. will directly contribute to 60 premature deaths across the country, a new MIT-led study finds. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2022, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-conservatives-think-there-is-something-intrinsically-good-about-gasoline-fossil-fuel/966254/116 "2022-06-17T04:17:34Z")
And just to emphasize, those deaths were just from Volkswagen, and just from the _excess_ pollution caused by the cheat devices. If we count all deaths from particulate and NOx emissions, it’s tens, maybe hundreds of thousands per year. We’re all responsible for the overall emissions, but the cheating is entirely on the shoulders of the VW and other execs, which I consider tantamount to murder. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2022, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-conservatives-think-there-is-something-intrinsically-good-about-gasoline-fossil-fuel/966254/117 "2022-06-17T04:18:03Z")
there must have been a holocaust of dead people before the change in emission standards. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2022, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-conservatives-think-there-is-something-intrinsically-good-about-gasoline-fossil-fuel/966254/118 "2022-06-17T04:23:10Z")
There still is today, except it just shows up in the data as “respiratory failure” without any particular connection to pollution. Also don’t forget the legions of people with brain damage from decades of exposure to leaded gas. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2022, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-conservatives-think-there-is-something-intrinsically-good-about-gasoline-fossil-fuel/966254/119 "2022-06-17T04:30:16Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > there must have been a holocaust of dead people before the change in emission standards. Yup: [Decreased vehicle emissions linked with significant drop in deaths attributable to air pollution](https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/press-releases/decreased-vehicle-emissions-linked-with-significant-drop-in-deaths-attributable-to-air-pollution/) > [@](#): > > Decreasing vehicle emissions since 2008 have reduced by thousands the number of deaths attributable to [air pollution](https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/multitaxo/topic/air-pollution/), yielding billions of dollars in benefits to society, according to a new study led by researchers at Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health. […] > > The new study provides estimates that compare the actual health and climate impact of reduced vehicle emissions with what that impact would have been had emissions not been reduced. […] > > The researchers also estimated that deaths attributable to air pollution due to vehicle emissions dropped from 27,700 in 2008 to 19,800 in 2017. The decrease in deaths was not as large as researchers expected, because many factors offset the progress in reducing emissions, such as a larger and aging population, larger vehicles replacing smaller ones, and more miles traveled per vehicle. On the other hand, the authors noted, if vehicles were still emitting at 2008 levels, those emissions would have caused 48,200 deaths attributable to air pollution in 2017—which would have represented a 74% increase between 2008 and 2017. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2022, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-conservatives-think-there-is-something-intrinsically-good-about-gasoline-fossil-fuel/966254/120 "2022-06-17T05:15:03Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > The idea that deserts can’t be used for nuclear storage is nonsense on a grand scale. We store onsite now so it’s not much of a challenge to build containment centers for nuclear waste in desert locations. The nonsense here is that you believe you can dismiss well-elucidated technical issues simply by labeling them “nonsense”. Try harder. Stranger [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-conservatives-think-there-is-something-intrinsically-good-about-gasoline-fossil-fuel/966254.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-conservatives-think-there-is-something-intrinsically-good-about-gasoline-fossil-fuel/966254.md?page=7)