# Do Copiers Have Microscopic Codes? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 16, 2011, 8:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-copiers-have-microscopic-codes/606396 "2011-12-16T08:46:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![BeaMyra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/2bfe46/32.png) [@BeaMyra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeaMyra)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2011, 8:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-copiers-have-microscopic-codes/606396/1 "2011-12-16T08:46:13Z")
A coworker was telling me that in order to defeat counterfeiting and to trace people, that all modern copiers have tiny microscopic codes printed on each sheet you copy. So if I was to copy a sheet, somewhere on it, would be a tiny code, that would be able to identify what copier it was made from. That way you could trace the copy page back to the machine that made it. My BS meter was going off, but who knows, now-a-days. I don’t see how it would help with counterfeiting since that’s more about paper than copy quality, I guess. What’s the straight dope on this ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2011, 8:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-copiers-have-microscopic-codes/606396/2 "2011-12-16T08:57:49Z")
Yes, they do - although there’s understandably a fair bit of industrial secrecy regarding the details. > **[Photocopier | Forensic identification](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photocopier#Forensic_identification)** > > Similar to forensic identification of typewriters, computer printers and copiers can be traced by imperfections in their output. The mechanical tolerances of the toner and paper feed mechanisms cause banding, which can reveal information about the individual device's mechanical properties. It is often possible to identify the manufacturer and brand, and, in some cases, the individual printer can be identified from a set of known printers by comparing their outputs. > Some high-quality color print... There’s also something called the [EURion Constellation](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurion) that appears on banknotes, and digital copiers detect (and refuse to copy the material) ---
**Author:** ![Cazzle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cazzle/32/75_2.png) [@Cazzle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cazzle)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2011, 9:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-copiers-have-microscopic-codes/606396/3 "2011-12-16T09:00:42Z")
Some printers certainly do. Link:[HOWTO read the secret forensic dots in your laser-printer output | Boing Boing](http://boingboing.net/2008/10/23/howto-read-the-secre.html) ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2011, 9:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-copiers-have-microscopic-codes/606396/4 "2011-12-16T09:12:53Z")
I once worked for a copier company and can confirm it was an issue, though I know few details. Selling a currency-capable copier is against U.S. regulations. A very low-tech solution is a copier that never does 1:1 sizing, e.g. making every copy 3% too large, or 3% too small. Since there are counterfeiters out there with very high-tech equipment, I was bemused by Secret Service concern with teenagers thinking “Oh, we don’t have enough money to go shopping. Let’s stop at Kinko’s and duplicate your $20 bill a few times.” 😃 ---
**Author:** ![BeaMyra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/2bfe46/32.png) [@BeaMyra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeaMyra)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2011, 10:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-copiers-have-microscopic-codes/606396/5 "2011-12-16T10:28:32Z")
Well I guess I owe my coworker an apology. thanks ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2011, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-copiers-have-microscopic-codes/606396/6 "2011-12-16T15:57:37Z")
Going by \*\*Mangetout \*\*and \*\*Cazzle’s \*\*links … the codes only appears on certain brands of color copiers? B&W copiers don’t have these codes? ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2011, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-copiers-have-microscopic-codes/606396/7 "2011-12-16T16:16:27Z")
> [@bordelond](#): > > Going by \*\*Mangetout \*\*and \*\*Cazzle’s \*\*links … the codes only appears on certain brands of color copiers? B&W copiers don’t have these codes? The main concern of course is with (color) copiers that can make a passable copy of money; especially US currency which is not as cahllenging as some more complex foreign currency. I had read the story about the yellow dot codes back when colour copiers were first available. The funniest related news story I read was the one about the automated bill changer that was removed when the owner found it was accepting black-and-white photocopies of (very colourful) Canadian bills and dispensing change. Where? In the main Ottawa building of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police. As the editorial pointed out, maybe the issue to focus on should not be the faulty bill changer… Don’t forget though, the same rules apply as with typewriter forensics (google Whitaker Chambers). Basic flaws in the output copy can be readily identified - dirt in the camera system, scratches on the platen or drum. The marks may not be deliberate, but depending on how obvious, they are valid ID. The trouble with black and white is that any attempt to produce a mark will appear as a lfaw on the copy; the whole point of the yellow dots is that they are pretty much invisible. Black - not so. ---
**Author:** ![Dingbang](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac8455/32.png) [@Dingbang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dingbang)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2011, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-copiers-have-microscopic-codes/606396/8 "2011-12-16T16:31:27Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > There’s also something called the [EURion Constellation](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurion) that appears on banknotes, and digital copiers detect (and refuse to copy the material) And here’s the kicker: Instead of printing the money, it spits out a piece of paper with nothing but an url on it. The url takes you to a site about how it’s illegal to copy money. At least, that’s what my printer did when I tried to make a copy of some cash and checks to document my son’s Boy Scout popcorn sales. The cash was a no go. ---
**Author:** ![Hermitian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hermitian/32/470_2.png) [@Hermitian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hermitian)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2011, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-copiers-have-microscopic-codes/606396/9 "2011-12-16T21:22:00Z")
We have a Xerox copier, and you can SEE the yellow dots in sunlight (not under fluorescent light). They are faint, but I find it quite distracting when reading up close. I have thought about pointing this out to my coworkers, but I have a feeling that they would not be able to see them and then they would just ridicule me. ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2011, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-copiers-have-microscopic-codes/606396/10 "2011-12-16T23:35:52Z")
> [@Dingbang](#): > > And here’s the kicker: Instead of printing the money, it spits out a piece of paper with nothing but an url on it. The url takes you to a site about how it’s illegal to copy money. I would imagine it also spits out a piece of paper at your nearby Secret Service office with YOUR url on it! Hopefully, you keep your home clean and presentable, as you may be receiving unexpected visitors Real Soon Now. ---
**Author:** ![Hail\_Ants](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/dc4da7/32.png) [@Hail\_Ants](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hail_Ants)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2011, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-copiers-have-microscopic-codes/606396/11 "2011-12-17T01:00:38Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > I would imagine it also spits out a piece of paper at your nearby Secret Service office with YOUR url on it! > > Hopefully, you keep your home clean and presentable, as you may be receiving unexpected visitors Real Soon Now. No, that’s a \*major \*difference. Warning you is one thing, but getting you to incriminate yourself is quite another. The ACLU would be all over that (and would be a rare instance where I’d agree with them). Next stop would be having LimeWire report you to the RIAA. Not coincidentally when my work place first got an HP color laser copier I tried printing a $100 bill off Wiki just to see how well it would come out. I had no intention of trying to pass it, I wanted to see if the hype lived up to reality. It didn’t at that point, it wasn’t really even \*remotely \*passable, though I suppose if I had Photoshop I could’ve tweaked it better. Funny part is here I am at work by myself on 3rd shift with this obvious attempt at counterfeiting and I suddenly realize, oh shit, how do I get rid of this thing?! We didn’t have any shredders, only shred bins & a shredding service. Which meant that the shred guy might open a bin to empty it and this thing might pop out in front of him! So I took a pair of scissors and cut it up best I could, then soaked the pieces in coffee! Then put the pieces in four different trash cans. ---
**Author:** ![Canadjun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/76d3ee/32.png) [@Canadjun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Canadjun)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2011, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-copiers-have-microscopic-codes/606396/12 "2011-12-17T21:56:13Z")
Am I misremembering (I certainly don’t have a cite), but didn’t I read about some colour photocopiers that not only will not copy money but will stop working at all until you call in a technician to make them go again? Now THAT would be embarrassing if you were just “experimenting”! :eek: Hopefully you did it in secret and can find someone else to blame. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![ZenBeam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/3ab097/32.png) [@ZenBeam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZenBeam)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2011, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-copiers-have-microscopic-codes/606396/13 "2011-12-17T23:29:16Z")
At my former employer, we were sent an email that the new, networked enabled printer/scanner/copiers we were getting would automatically report by email any attempt to photocopy money to the secret service, IIRC (whoever is charged with investigating fake money). I figured that was probably BS, but wasn’t certain enough to actually try making a copy. ETA: Now that I think about it, I should have given it a try on my last day. ---
**Author:** ![williambaskerville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f14d63/32.png) [@williambaskerville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/williambaskerville)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2011, 9:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-copiers-have-microscopic-codes/606396/14 "2011-12-18T09:18:10Z")
FWIW, I just tried scanning a 50 euro note on my Canon scanner. I got an error box saying “Cannot scan. Please check the original. Code:5,205,154”. ---
**Author:** ![Dog80](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/6bbea6/32.png) [@Dog80](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dog80)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2011, 10:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-copiers-have-microscopic-codes/606396/15 "2011-12-18T10:35:39Z")
I just scanned a new crisp 10 euro note with my Scansnap s1500 and then printed it on my Epson Aculaser C1100. Neither machine complained. Then I took the same 10 euro note and made a copy with my Epson Stylus DX9400F all-in-one machine. It didn’t complain eiter. ---
**Author:** ![williambaskerville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f14d63/32.png) [@williambaskerville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/williambaskerville)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2011, 11:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-copiers-have-microscopic-codes/606396/16 "2011-12-18T11:14:37Z")
> [@Dog80](#): > > I just scanned a new crisp 10 euro note with my Scansnap s1500 and then printed it on my Epson Aculaser C1100. Neither machine complained. > > Then I took the same 10 euro note and made a copy with my Epson Stylus DX9400F all-in-one machine. It didn’t complain eiter. Interesting. My scanner is working fine, and will happily scan a printed out photograph of my 50 euro note. Could it be the higher values have the protection ? Do you have a 50 handy ? ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2011, 11:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-copiers-have-microscopic-codes/606396/17 "2011-12-18T11:31:50Z")
> [@ZenBeam](#): > > At my former employer, we were sent an email that the new, networked enabled printer/scanner/copiers we were getting would automatically report by email any attempt to photocopy money to the secret service, IIRC (whoever is charged with investigating fake money). > > I figured that was probably BS, but wasn’t certain enough to actually try making a copy. > > ETA: Now that I think about it, I should have given it a try on my last day. And the pool maintenance guys put a special invisible dye in there that turns blue if anyone pees in it . . . ---
**Author:** ![postcards](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8e8cbc/32.png) [@postcards](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/postcards)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2011, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-copiers-have-microscopic-codes/606396/18 "2011-12-18T15:45:36Z")
> [@williambaskerville](#): > > FWIW, I just tried scanning a 50 euro note on my Canon scanner. > > I got an error box saying “Cannot scan. Please check the original. Code:5,205,154”. > [@williambaskerville](#): > > Interesting. My scanner is working fine, and will happily scan a printed out photograph of my 50 euro note. Could it be the higher values have the protection ? Do you have a 50 handy ? What model scanner? My Canon 8000F happily scans any American note put on it; perhaps because it’s just a scanner, not an all-in-one? ---
**Author:** ![ZenBeam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/3ab097/32.png) [@ZenBeam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZenBeam)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2011, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-copiers-have-microscopic-codes/606396/19 "2011-12-18T16:42:33Z")
> [@Koxinga](#): > > And the pool maintenance guys put a special invisible dye in there that turns blue if anyone pees in it . . . Yeah, well i wouldn’t pee in the company pool either. ---
**Author:** ![Joey\_P](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/919ad9/32.png) [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2011, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-copiers-have-microscopic-codes/606396/20 "2011-12-18T17:06:13Z")
> [@Hail\_Ants](#): > > Funny part is here I am at work by myself on 3rd shift with this obvious attempt at counterfeiting and I suddenly realize, oh shit, how do I get rid of this thing?! We didn’t have any shredders, only shred bins & a shredding service. Which meant that the shred guy might open a bin to empty it and this thing might pop out in front of him! So I took a pair of scissors and cut it up best I could, then soaked the pieces in coffee! Then put the pieces in four different trash cans. Put it in someone else’s desk. Actually, I would have just crumpled it up and threw it out. I can see why people might worry if they saw it in the shred bins. But chances are, no one is picking through the garbage. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-copiers-have-microscopic-codes/606396.md?page=2)