Do copyrights violate basic human rights?

What I find amusing is, fanfic writers can be just as protective of their work as the original author!

Once upon a time, when I was a young newbie authoress, I wrote a story inspired by another work (but it was, looking back, mostly a vehicle for my own vicarious adventuring). After I put it on my webpage (which I eventually ended up paying for, with my own money), I would get the occasional angry email that I “stole” the concept from said other work.

I think the generaly agreement, though, is that we don’t plagarize from each other. Honor among thieves, or something. :smiley:

My opinion is that fan fiction, as long as the author’s okay with it and the 'ficcers don’t sell it without the proper legal arrangements, adds to the value of intellectual property. It is, essentially, free advertising. (I got into a lot of series due to fan fiction. It also helped that I had a ton and a half of friends who collected coughs fansubs and coughs again digisubs.)

I’m still writing fanfiction now, incidentally. I like playing in other people’s universes. And perhaps, as some of the more cynical among you may point out, I lack the talent to make my own worlds. (I am, however, improving. I think. At least the drek I come out with now sucks immensely less than the drek I used to churn out.)

Spectrum, I think you are in the wrong line of work. Somewhere out there, that guy you showed the first chapter to is masterbating to an image of your protaganist in drag. Someone else is discussing what your characters would say at a tea party with a cast of Full House. When you create a work, it goes out in to the world and creates a life of it’s own. It will be raped by thought in every orfice the readers can find. It will not stay the pristine thing you thought you created. You can play the petty tyrant and prevent them from writing these things down, but don’t think for a moment you have any real control.

Anyway, about the subject.

First, we have to understand that property is not a “natural” concept. There cannot be property without some sort of government to legitamize and enforce a claim to property. There are many things that our government has decided cannot be private property- e.g. airwaves, people, the moon, the deep sea, your image.

So when talking about property, we can’t immediately start railing about some sort of god-given property rights. Instead we must talk about the rights defined and enforced by our government, and why they are the way they are.

Our constitution doesn’t talk about “because of man’s natural right to information he has created…” or anything like that. Instead, it talks about “promoting the progress of the useful arts”. The framers knew that the creation of intellectual property is a great benefit to our nation. It improves our lives and enriches our culture. And so they sought a solution that best encourages people to create, but removed that restriction as soon as possible. They granted a very limited copyright, allowing enough time for the author to create a profit, although not enough time for authors to live off of one work for the rest of their life.

Because copyright is also a monopoly. And, most disturbingly, it is a monopoly on creation, thought and expression. If we are going to limit what you can say, write down or otherwise express, we must do so only for the most important causes.

I support the framer’s original visions of copyright. I am an artist, and I would like to profit off my work. I do not feel like I have to profit off one work until I die, and I certainly don’t expect my work to support my grandkids.

But the current forever-and-ever version of copyright does the opposite of “promoting the useful arts”.

For example, I am a filmmaker. I will not make documentarys, because I am afraid that my best shot will be in a restaurant or something where copyrighted music is playing in the background and I will not be able to afford the rights to that music. It would be just to heartbreaking to lose footage because of a Mickey Mouse poster in the background or something. I cannot film a proper birthday scene, because the “Happy Birthday” that has become an inextractable part of all of our lives is still under copyright. I cannot access old, forgotten, out-of-print films that I would like to see (much of the art school Yosemite mentions involves looking at the works of the past). There are many aspects of modern copyright that discourage and hamper me when I am making art.

What determines who can make art nowdays? Money. A major corporation does not have to tiptoe around property so much. An independent artist does. We are handing over our cultural hertiage and our ability to create relevent art to a few major media corporations. These laws arn’t out there to protect you, Yosemite and Spectrum. They would prevent you from making art if they could. It’s just another way to put the damper of the competition, and to stifle real art. We are dismantling the framework that inspires and allows arts- our culture, our past, the works of our collective nation- and give the pieces to Disney.

I think it’s been pretty successful. Turn on the radio lately? Without a lively public domain, and with continued inroads in to what sorts of expressions are legal, we are going to experience the decline of the arts in our nation.

Exactly. Well put. This is what I find most frustrating in arguing with Dopers about copyright. They think they are defending themselves and their ability to make money, when actually they are defending Disney and the other big media players. It’s just a ludicrously misguided and (phrase deleted) way to think. The net effect of copyright at the moment is to stifle original art. The Dopers can’t or won’t see this, to their own and everyone else’s detriment.

And what also goes away is my ability to tell my story and have it recognized as the one, true vision of the UNIVERSE THAT I FUCKING CREATED ALL ON MY OWN.

It is MINE. MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE!

THE DAY YOU PARASITIC FUCKS ALL DROP DEAD WILL BE A DAY WORTH CELEBRATING.

Except, of course, that I explicitly support reducing the tenur of copyrights, particularly copyrights held by corporations, not individuals, and would publicly work to change policy in such a way.

What I will not tolerate is no-talent scum parasiting off of my hard work during the tenure of my ownership. Mine. It is mine. It belongs to me. I intend to release everything I ever write, draw or create to the public domain upon my death. Until then everyone else can get bent.

errr are there any “parasites” right now pilfering your master works or is this all in your grandious imagination? Tell you what, publish a work, have these people come along and ruin your one true universe, then complain. Don’t get all pantybunched over a fictional ripping off of a fictional publishing of a fictional work. It’s as sad as bad fan fiction.
As for The OP. I support the protection of an individuals work until their death. I don’t believe a corporation should have ownership of intellectual property indefinitely. (I’m looking at you Disney and your heard of evil lawyers with their lovable mouse ears and razor sharp claws) There has to be some limitation allowing for works to go into public domain sometime in a century.

Well, Ill be waiting …
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHA!

He’s so cute when he’s upset.

The moment someone else sees your work you lose this ability, as I guarantee that their vision of the universe that you assembled will not be exactly the same as your vision of it. It’s the nature of communication.

And if you therefore decide to never let anyone else see your work, well, happy wanking.

And the day you repeat this type of behavior in Great Debates might be the day you are prohibited from posting, here.

Get yourself under control. If you cannot argue without personal attacks, keep yourself to the BBQ Pit.

[ /Moderator Mode ]

To be fair, spectrum wasn’t attacking anyone posting in this thread. His ire is directed toward hypothetical fanfic writers.

Maybe, maybe not. His ire is expressed in a thread in which actual fanfic writers have posted. Anyway, it was a rant.

Not to mention – and I encounter this with some regularity – people who have told me in essence that because I am an artist, I should expect to be poor, that being poor or constantly struggling is somehow integral to the artistic process and if you are not, you’re either not a “real” artist or you’ve “sold out.” It’s not the fact that I struggle I have a problem with, because I knew this wasn’t an easy path when I chose it; it’s the expectation people have that I am supposed to struggle forever. I guess love and ramen noodles are really all you need.

That sort of thing just enables this point of view that anything any one person creates should be part of the society’s collective intellectual property. The “human right” to copy stuff is about as much a “human right” as you are guaranteed to have food and a roof over your head. They want socialist intellectual property rights, without the system of a socialist society that supports the people creating the intelluctual property to begin with. If that makes sense.

I personally blame Van Gogh & co. for romanticising the idea of the “starving artist” in the modern mind. Historically, before copyright as the OP put it, most career artists were supported by guilds or patrons. They had a system in place to foster the creation of their works. Now some internet looneys not only want to take away the modern protection of copyright (my incentive for being creative instead of doing something else with my time), they want to tell me I should somehow enjoy struggling to make a (modest) living because if I don’t, I’m less an artist or don’t truly love my work. Yeah. Doofuses about sums it up.

Society does not have an obligation to compensate you for your “creativity”.

If you can figure out a way to make a living at it, great. If not, get a day job.

[QUOTE=mks57]
Society does not have an obligation to compensate you for your “creativity”.

That is not what I said, and I’d appreciate you not putting words in my mouth, or deliberately trying to misconstrue what I said into some kind of underhanded personal attack on me or the validity of my own work.

I specifically said a society that wants me – or any other creative person – to release their work for free so that anyone who may do whatever they want with it for fun or for profit (i.e. the people advocating no copyright), has an obligation to compensate me in return for that exchange. Just because that intellectual property happens to be art, music, or writing does not mean the creators should be obligated to "give it away’ for some perceived love of their craft. The idea that all intellectual property should be public domain is a socialist and anarchist idea, but it only works if there is a system in place that also enables people to create that IP to begin with. Otherwise, you will see the arts and entertainment industry as we know it come to a screeching halt.

No one should be expected to work with no compensation, but that is what those who would do away with copyright essentially advocate. I am allowed legal protection by copyright to “figure out a way to make a living at it.” Whether or not I personally make a living at it is irrelevant to the discussion. My comment in referring to the romantic, modern notion of the “starving artist” was because it helps enable these sorts of arguments to begin with; that it is somehow noble that artists or writers or creative persons should suffer or go without for their work, and that makes just taking it OK. Because, you know, artists are supposed to suffer and work out of love anyway. They like it. Ahem.

For the record, since the beginning of 2001, I have spent approximately 12 months (not continuously) where I was not working either one or two part-time jobs, and/or a full-time job (as needed), in addition to my artistic work. Clearly I am more than willing to work a day job, nor do I think anyone has any obligation to me at the moment. Your opinions (or lack thereof) of my own work ethic as an artist have nothing to do with what I said at all.

Except that words that you write down on paper aren’t yours by divine right, they are yours because everyone else agrees that they are yours. Your assertion that your works are YOURS is just that, an assertion. WHY are they yours? If you want us to assent to your views, then you should perhaps give some reason for us to do so, rather than simply repeating your assertion.

The common sense view of patents and copyrights is that they are a human-created method of advancing the useful arts and sciences. Copyright is obviously a method that presumes a certain level of technology to make sense.

In medieval times, copyright law would have made no sense. The only way to create a book was to laboriously copy it by hand, the work of months or years. Every copy of a book was precious. There was really no market for books for sale, if someone wanted a copy of a book they would be more likely to hire someone to create a copy rather than attempt to find an owner of an existing copy who wanted to sell. No one authored books with the intention of making money, it was impossible. And the only way for an author’s work to survive would be if enough people thought the work was valuable enough to spend months working to create a copy. There was no percieved shortage of content, because the amount of total books in the world was limited…more copies of one work would probably mean fewer copies of another work. Books degraded over the decades, and so lots of labor had to be done just to maintain the same number of copies of a work. No one expected authors to be able to control their work, since the vast majority of authors were dead and had been dead for hundreds or thousands of years.

But of course the printing press changed that. Suddenly books could be created in order to sell them. A market for books began. More physical numbers of books could be created than there were works to fill those books. Suddenly there was a market for NEW books. Someone could write a book, have a printer make hundreds of copies, and sell those books, and make a living. But of course, if someone else can just print the same books there is no incentive to actually write books. Since state control was also increasing at this time, the idea arose that the state could grant an author a monopoly over his own work, since this would encourage the production of new work. And this is essentially what we have today, with the addition of the notion that a corporation can own a work rather than a human being. But note that this scheme requires the existance of strong governmental controls…you have to have courts and policemen to enforce the author’s monopoloy over making copies of his work.

And also note that the scheme presupposes a certain level of technological ease of copying. If creating a copy takes months of manual labor, copyright makes no sense. If copying a work can be done but requires a large capital investment, but once the investment is made unlimited copies can be produced, then our current system makes sense. Copyright violators are deterred because their copying facilities are centralized, they have a lot to lose from a judgement, and there are a limited number of copying facilities due to the large capital investment required. The publishing houses also act as a cartel, they essentially agree not to make unauthorized copies of each other’s works in exchange for similar agreements. Enforcement is not often needed, since the publishing houses mostly refrain voluntarily. They don’t want to see copyright weakened, since it would reduce the value of their own assets.

Now people might object to the words “monopoly” or “cartel”, since these are loaded words. But I believe they are accurate words. And the copyright scheme worked well during the age of industrial copying. Monopolies granted to authors was a good scheme to advance the useful arts and sciences.

But of course, now we have an entirely new technology. Copying a file and distributing it over the internet is trivial. And the copiers have little incentive to voluntarily refrain from violating copyright, since unlike the industrial publishing houses they have essentially no assets of their own that could be devalued under a different copyright scheme. Copying is now trivial. Distribution is now trivial. Enforcing copyright in the information age will become more and more difficult, and eventually become impossible. Our current copyright scheme makes no more sense today than it would have made in the days of handwritten manuscripts.

That isn’t to say that we don’t need some method of compensating authors. But note that our current scheme is not tightly coupled to the USE of the information in a work…I can buy a paperback, read it, lend it to 100 friends, they can all read it, I can sell it to a used bookstore, someone can buy it and read it, lend it to 100 friends, donate it to a library, the library can loan it 100 times, then sell it where it ends up in a basement. And the only time the author got any compensation was the first time I purchased a physical copy of the book. Control over copying was an acceptable proxy since control over copying was POSSIBLE in the industrial age. Control over the individual copy was impossible, and so was never even considered as a method of compensating authors.

So we desperately need some other method of advancing the useful arts and sciences other than copyrights. I don’t know exactly what that method will be, other than a few vague ideas. But our current system is unenforceable, or will be in the very near future. An unenforceable law is worse than no law since it will only be used capriciously by the powerful to punish their enemies. But all schemes of compensating authors must be based on the principle of advancing the useful arts and sciences…or else the vast majority of people have no incentive to cooperate in such a scheme. Perhaps an author does have a natural human right to the exclusive use of his work…but if so you can’t just assert that an author does, you have to convince the rest of us that we should authorize the courts, jails, and policemen to attempt to enforce that right. Your asserted right is meaningless unless the vast majority of people agree that your right exists. Convince them that an exclusive right to make copies advances the usefull arts and sciences and they’ll probably assent. But if it no longer advances the above, asserting your rights in shriller and shriller tones probably won’t work.

I was refering to Spectrum above, not anyone else who has advocated reasonable intellectual property positions.

You’re being defensive. I said nothing about you or the quality of your work. I’m attacking the idea that artists, or anyone else, are entitled to compensation for their labor or work.

Why would that be a bad thing? Intellectual property is a legal fiction. You are under no obligation to release your work to the world. If you choose to do so, it does not create an obligation for the world to compensate you for that work. Ideas are not intellectual property. Facts are not intellectual property. Mathematical formulas and theorems are not intellectual property. Typeface designs are not intellectual property. Recipes are not intellectual property. Why should your work be treated differently?

The obligation is created by demand for the work. The need for compensation comes because people will want to use it. People want music to listen to, or books to read, or pictures to look at and enjoy. If they want these things, they are going to have to compensate someone for creating them. These things take hours, weeks, in some cases years to create. And it’s unreasonable to expect individuals to create art and entertainment without being compensated for it in some manner. The fry cook at McDonald’s gets paid to make my french fries so I can eat them; why should musicians or artists not be able to live off the fruits of their labour? If people enjoy their works and want to make use of them, then the creator should be compensated in one form or another. Currently that is done making use of copyrights.

Ideas are treated as intellectual property all the time. What are patents if not just ideas? A lot of software and biotech companies have most certainly patented algorithms and formulas for deriving certain data. Typefaces are copyrighted and if I want certain fonts the only way I can get them is to pay for them. I have to pay licenses for certain fonts to use them commercially. Lists of ingredients cannot be copyrighted, but you can copyright the written instructions to a recipe, as well as collections of recipes or an entire cookbook. Patents and copyrights are in place as they are now to make sure the people that create these things get compensated for their time and cost and/or research and development of creating them. How is creating art, music, or anything else different from these other things? They’re all intellectual property.

If you eliminate the idea of copyright and intellectual property in modern society, you’re going to have to have some other system in place to support all these things, because last time I checked we live in a capitalist system, and if someone can’t make a living (or at least reasonable compensation) off creating entertainment, or research, or science, or technology, then they aren’t going to be able to do it at all. You get what you pay for.

I guess because a lot of people find enjoyment and value in the arts and entertainment, and would not like to see it come to a screeching halt.

jinwicked is right—something has to give. Something always has to give. You can ramble all you want about how IP is a “legal fiction,” but without this “legal fiction,” a lot (nay, most) of the work that everyone enjoys would dry up and wither away. So what’s wrong with that, indeed?

If you want to see any creative work released for your (and everyone else’s) enjoyment, you will have to treat it differently. Do you want to see any creative work released, for you to enjoy, or don’t you?

Because, as jinwicked says, in essence, something’s got to give. Don’t expect people to work at something with no hope of compensation. It’ll never happen—at least not on any large scale.

And in preview, what jinwicked said. But I’ll submit this anyway since I went to the trouble of typing it. :wink:

Excuse me, you don’t think anyone has the right to be paid for their work? :dubious:

Clarify, please.