Do copyrights violate basic human rights?

On some other alternative universe, maybe. In this universe, it’s merely borderline sociopathic—not giving a damn if someone’s work is published against their will—perhaps something they feel is very private. And not giving a damn if someone works ages on some project, only to have someone swipe it and give it away.

I remember that thread. Oy.

I’d like to hear why Mr2001 thinks it’s such a great tradeoff too. And why people will benefit from living in a (sociopathic) universe where you must lock away anything you don’t want to see published and never trust anyone to see what you’ve created (for fear that they’ll publish it without your consent).

Thanks for providing the link, I guess, but after reading through that page, I don’t see anything there that I haven’t already written here.

Yes, it’s a tradeoff. Some works that people make under today’s laws might not be made if payment had to be arranged differently. We probably disagree about the amount, but we can agree that there would be some. OTOH, there would also be new works created that can’t be created today, and everyone would have access to works that have already been created. It’s hard to say whether John Q. Public would have access to more or fewer works.

Why do I think the tradeoff is worthwhile?

  1. Government gets off of technology’s back. People can continue work on peer to peer distribution systems, decryption algorithms, etc. without worrying about being held liable for distributing a piracy tool.

  2. Artists can stop thinking of their fans as their enemies. If you get paid the same no matter how many people enjoy your work once it’s done, you don’t have to worry about copy protecting your CDs, crippling the screener DVDs you send to critics and judges, etc. Gamers no longer have to do a ridiculous CD-swapping dance to prove to their computers that they own the game. Music lovers are able to use their PCs as CD players once again.

  3. Fans can enjoy their favorite works to the fullest. They can make video collages, backup copies, and mix tapes, and record digital TV broadcasts for later viewing, without having to break the law by hacking their equipment. If they hear about a new band from a friend, they can listen to that band’s new single, their older stuff, their influences, and their influences’ influences, all within minutes - and without spending a buck a song for something they may not want to hear more than once, in an encrypted format they can’t use in their car or living room.

  4. Popular culture becomes available even to people who can’t afford it. This should be self-explanatory.

  5. The principles stop rubbing me, and all those other wide-eyed idealists, the wrong way. (Insert your own “principal rubbed me the wrong way” joke here.) People who perform a service get paid for their labor; things that human progress has made possible to do for free become legal to do for free; no one is able to own sequences of bits or arrangements of pixels. The legal system that has been tilted more and more in favor of the media corporations finally tilts back the other way. The planets align, Baby Jesus smiles, and the world becomes a little more sane.

And that’s my cue to stop trying to have a rational conversation with you.

Well let me give you a clue. In that other thread, you singularly failed to come up with any business model for making money out of art that did not rely on copyright, with the exception of performance arts where you could require payment for entry to venues.

Now have a little think and tell me whether an environment in which no one can get paid for art is going to produce more or less art.

The balance of your post is a one-eyed utopian dream in which it’s going to be wonderful because artists are going to give away all the art they make, never mind that for the most part they aren’t going to make it.

Perhaps you might be interested in reading this thread, then.

Spell it out for me. I don’t see it.

I’ll keep it short since I’ve already repeated it so many times: Treat your work as providing a service–designing original works–not providing a product. Find customers who will pay you to design new works or improve on existing ones, and make arrangements before you start working, so you know you’ll be paid for your labor. A specific model is work by public contract, where you announce to the world that you’ll create something and release it for public use if everyone contributes a total of $X; variations include releasing your work bit by bit and collecting advance payment for each new installment, or finding an investor to front you $X once you’ve shown him evidence the public will contribute $X+Y by the time you’re ready to release.

That is to say, an extremely limiting, probably totally ineffective business model that almost certainly won’t work or won’t work very often.

1/ The number of people who are going to buy a “pig in a poke” is extremely limited. “Hi, I’m going to make a CD, give me money and some day you can have the CD. No, you can’t hear it, I haven’t made it yet.” Do you have any idea how much crap is written or sung or painted or filmed that never sells because no one likes it? Bearing that in mind, how many idealists are you going to be able to find to agree to pay for what you’re going to write, sing or paint or film before you’ve even made it? What you’re talking about is the whole arts/entertainment industry being cut down to the level of funding it can extract from a few wealthy idealist benefactors.

2/ And anyway, why would anyone pay you when they’d be better off waiting till you get others to agree to pay, you complete the work, then they copy it. Your whole scheme would be an entrenchment of the many riding on the backs of the few, at least to the extent that the few could support anything at all.

You yourself described Stephen King attempting this sort of scheme and failing. One of the highest profile popular authors in history, and he couldn’t get people to pay up front.

Your scheme is a joke. What you want is the whole arts/entertainment world to survive on alms, (when every other service/manufacture industry has legally enforceable rights over their work) eviscerating it, all for some free information ideal.

Thing is, she’s completely right. When you start taking away people’s right to NOT publish things, it’s no longer a copyright issue–it’s a right-to-privacy issue. Think about it–wouldn’t your “work” include your personal correspondence? Notes to your significant other? Photographs of your significant other? Under your schema, nothing is “private” anymore, and anyone can grab the intimate things you’re “hoarding” and distribute them to the general public–and the originator has no recourse whatsoever. How is that not sociopathic?

Indeed. Not giving a damn about other people’s feelings—having no empathy—that’s an element of sociopathy.

In previous incarnations of this discussion, Mr2001 did make a few concessions to privacy—If I remember correctly, he would allow diaries or pictures of their kids to be exempt. Probably private letters were exempt as well. But I’m not sure if he mentioned pictures of the significant other, but I know that he would not exempt stories or essays (or other material) that the author felt were deeply personal and private, but others (like Mr2001, I suppose) decided were not private enough. I recall asking the question, “What is private enough to be exempt?” I can’t recall the specific answer, but I believe that he balked at allowing the author to indicate what was private enough, since he feared they’d use the privacy “excuse” to “hoarde” their own works.

If my memory has not failed me, he also turned a deaf ear to the idea that some people might not want something published until they felt they were finished with it (the current version had sucky parts and they wanted to fix them up). Also, if someone was working on something that didn’t fit with their public reputation (and therefore publication of this work would embarrass them—perhaps erotic fiction?) well, no dice. If someone else gets “access” to the work, the author has no call to prevent it from being published.

Incidentally, I am not the first person to use the word “sociopathy” to describe this mindset. In a thread on a related subject that Mr2001 started last year, Lamia said this:

(From this thread—I linked to page two.)

Discussing this has made me think of something:

Is she still able to freely use her press if she is not allowed to publish someone’s private letters or pictures of someone else’s children? According to what you’ve said previously, no. So I guess you don’t really support Freedom of the Press, not even by your own (bizarre) definition of it.

First, a caveat.

I, personally, firmly and irrevocably believe that current copyright law is in desperate and serious need of overhaul. Specifically, I am convinced that the current term of protection provided is too long to a ludicrous degree. I am aware that the only real reason for the current length of the copyright protection period is because the Disney Corporation (and a few other organizations in a similar position with regards to copyrightable materials) purchased legislation to make it so.

That caveat aside, the basic system formed by the copyright laws is a sound one for accomplishing its stated objectives - namely to encourage the proliferation of the arts.
It is unrealistic to believe that a system that requires persons interested in expanding the body of creative work to obtain funding for their endeavor in advance is even marginally functional. For starters, asking people to pay for an artistic work in advance is asking them to buy a pig in a poke in the most fundamental sense.

“Hey! You with the cash! I’m going to write a book here, and if you want to read it, you should give me a dollar right now, or else no book for you!”

Faugh. Very, very few reasonable people would be willing to part with their cash on that premise. There is an unimaginable amount of heinously, grossly, fundamentally, intestinal-distress-inducingly bad writing abroad in the world. The odds are not good that our cornerside author is capable of producing readable writing, let alone writing that appeals to my particular taste. Hell, sometimes authors whose work I generally enjoy write books I can’t manage to plow through.

Since getting paid upfront is plauged with a number of let’s call them logistical impracticalites, that leaves getting paid AFTER producing the work in question. The only real way to assure this is to guarantee to the author (in copyright parlance, all persons producing copyrightable material are “authors” regardless of medium) that they and only they will be entitled to make decisions about the fate of their completed work. This is, in essence, what the copyright law does.

In practice, authors customarily sell their exclusive right (or rent it, depending) to corporate entities, who then sell copies to the general public. There’s a whole risk vs. reward dynamic there that I’m not going to go into. The author is then repaid for their labor, and can trot off to their garret (or whatever) and begin the process again.

The author gets something (paid). The corporation gets something (well, duh - corporations always get something). The public gets something (an addition to the arts). Everyone gets something. Of course, the general public has to PAY to get their something - but then I have to pay for oranges, gasoline, electricity, and the exceptionally fabulous leather jacket I wore to work today, too.

Unlike the windshield washer analogy I read earlier in this thread, I am in no way obligated to PURCHASE the copyrighted work. Nobody hucked the book at me and forced me to read it and then pony up $7.99 for the trouble. The case with music broadcast is slightly different - it is totally possible to enjoy someone’s copyrighted musical matieral through no action of one’s own - via radio, TV, etc. However, you may rest assured that somewhere, someone paid for that. In the instances where nobody paid for the privilege of broadcasting the song (as is sometimes the case) then it is being aired in the hope that once you hear it, you will want to hear it again - therefore inducing you to purchase a copy. The difference between the radio and the milk-for-sale analogy is as follows:

Music isn’t milk. Self-evident, I know. True all the same, though. Music (or literature, or sculpture, or photography) are not concrete products with physical presence. Their value is not intrinsic. The “property” part of intellectual property is pretty much a misnomer of convenience. Downloading a track off the net because you don’t feel like shelling out the 12 bucks for a CD is analagous to walking into the store with a sale on milk, grabbing a gallon, and walking back out without paying at all. Milk sellers with below-cost sales are hoping you buy more things than milk, but they ain’t giving milk away for free.

The reason people purchase music is to enable themselves to hear the song they want to hear when they want to hear it. We buy CDs (or tapes or vinyl) because we want the convenience of being sure we can hear the song we like whenever we want to hear it. You are totally free to try and slake your yen to hear a given song by listening to radio stations whose format includes that song until they play it if you want. Really, we buy convenience.

Another issue with doing away with copyright protection is just as LeeshaJoy (and a few others) have pointed out. Any number of people produce work that is ELIGIBLE for copyright, but that they have no intention of ever publishing for any reason. J.D. Salinger for famous example. Myself for another, exceptionally less famous, example.

I keep a journal. An old-fashioned, paper journal. If Mr2001 or another one of the extreme “no more copyright!” brigade were to break into my home, steal my journal and proceed to print out copies for distribution and there would be no mechanism available for me to prevent that. I could get angry and yell a lot, but I would have no right to prevent that. I never intend to publish my journal (oh God no), but that really doesn’t matter.

Copyrightable work does, in fact, include such things as personal correspondence, personal photographs, journals, etc. Copyright law allows us to prohibit the use of such things - it’s part and parcel of the right that allows authors to sell their works for profit.

For those who rail against copyright law on the grounds that they cannot then make backup copies of works - or copy a work in part or in whole for academic purposes - or make a mixed tape for your sweetie, I invite you to explore the concept of “fair use”.

Copyright law only kicks in when you attempt to distribute (or perform, or derive, or any of the other rights covered under the Copyright Act) a copyrighted work absent the permission of the author (or the person to whom the author has assigned those rights) AND (really there’s two parts here so let me repeat it) AND such contemplated use cannot be termed “fair use” under the meaning of the phrase.

I download songs for free all the time. Songs I already own. Songs I don’t feel like burning from CD onto my hard drive. Songs I own in a format inconvenient for my intended personal use. I was a student for many many years. During that time, I copied I-don’t-even-know how many documents - for use in academic arenas. I routinely quote movies, literature and music. I possess backup copies of computer games and other software made by me or at my instruction by friends and relatives. All fair use.

I read a lot about people attempting to justify their theft by condemning the law that they’re breaking while carrying out their theft. Just because you don’t like it doesn’t mean it’s not the law. Hell, the basis of the law is rational, purposeful and well-thought-out for the purpose. It’s socially responsible and a creative way to solve the problem of how to encourage the spread of the boundaries of art, culture and science. The current iteration of the law needs some work for sure, but the basic law is a good one.

Or a few million poorer idealist benefactors. In any case, I don’t think it’d be so bad. Stuff is still going to get made. If people can survive using nothing but free software, made by volunteers for nothing at all, then I think the rest of us can survive in a world where artists get paid less than they do today.

This has come up in previous threads, and my conclusion is that it’s possible to separate the right to privacy from copyright. I don’t think I really want to get into that again.

That’s the way all services work. The barber doesn’t give you a haircut before you pay, the mechanic doesn’t fix your car before you pay, and the roofer doesn’t fix your roof before you pay. You don’t know if they’re going to do a good job until after it’s been done, but the system seems to work well enough anyway. There’s a certain amount of risk involved, but

Actually, the whole term is. There is no such thing as “intellectual property”; it’s a term that people use to make trademarks, copyrights, and patents seem the same when they really have nothing in common under the law.

So let’s give people another way to prohibit the use of such things that doesn’t depend on copyright.

I invite you to explore the Digital Millennium Copyright Act. That’s what happens when when you have a powerful industry depending on the law to prop up their business model - you get laws that infringe on consumers’ rights. The recording industry will never be happy with laws and technology that allow consumers to exercise fair use, because they also make it possible to make illegal copies. They want to eliminate anything that can be used to violate copyright, and although they failed to crush the VCR and cassette recorder, they’ve succeeded against Napster and DVD X Copy.

You’re kidding, right? I’ve never prepaid for car repairs, nor have I prepaid for a haircut. Some jobs will ask for half up front, some ask for all up front, but many services wait until you’ve finished (restaurants, for example) before you pay.

But you’ve been dismal at making a compelling case—you may be convinced yourself, but as far as I can see, you’ve so far failed to convince anyone else. The thread I linked to in my previous post is a prime example.

I have to ask, Mr2001–where in the country do you live, and where do you purchase goods and services? Because I have been an active consumer for more than a decade, and I very rarely pay for services in advance. When I order food at a sit-down restaurant, the check comes at the end of the meal. When I get a haircut, the hairdresser rings me up after she cuts my hair. When I get photocopies at Kinko’s, I’m not expected to pay until the finished copies are in my hands. Where on God’s green Earth are you getting this “all services are paid for in advance” idea?

You’re right. Similarly, not being able to shout “FIRE!” in a crowded theater, reveal national security secrets, or incite a crowd to violence are limitations on free speech, but they’re limitations that I support. (However, I also support the use of technology that can be used to get around those limitations.) Some speech puts people directly in harm’s way, and it’s all right to ban that.

I’m not totally convinced that publishing private letters rises to that level, but I’ll suppose it does for now. OTOH, I’m entirely convinced that distributing a nonprivate artistic work does not rise to that level - depriving an author of profit is nothing like putting people in physical danger.

Think a little harder. You arrange to pay before the service is performed. When you drop off your car, they give you an estimate, and you expect that you’ll be paying it once the repairs are complete. If the repairs aren’t performed, you won’t be paying, because the mechanic broke his promise. But if the repairs are performed and you don’t pay, you owe him that money, and he can legally collect it from you.

Similarly, you can arrange to pay an artist before his work is performed. You don’t have to literally put the money in his hand before he starts working; he can give you an estimate and you can expect to pay once he’s done, just like the mechanic. You can make a legally binding promise to pay later, or you can put money in escrow for him to collect later. If he doesn’t perform the work, you don’t pay. If he does perform the work and you don’t pay, he takes you to court and collects the money anyway.

See my location field and my previous post.

Sigh. I really thought you guys would see what I meant.

When you go into a sit-down restaurant, it’s true that you don’t literally hand over the money until you leave. But you see the prices in advance, and your order is a promise to pay - if you say “I’ll have the steak”, what you’re really saying is “I’ll have the steak, and I agree to pay you $17.99 for it before I leave”. You know what your meal will cost, and by asking them to serve you food, you are agreeing to pay for it. That agreement to pay is what happens in advance.

D’oh. Looking back at my earlier post, I can see why you guys got the wrong idea. The part about paying in advance didn’t come out right, and it looks like I left a sentence hanging, too. Time for coffee.

Because with “intellectual property” it’s possible for you to help yourself to what’s in my wallet and for me to have the same amount of money in my wallet afterwards. I can give you one of my dollars without having to reduce the number of dollars I have. It’s nonsensical to treat “intellectual property” as property.

Anyway, I think the reason copyrights/patents/etc have become an issue of late is because they’re being used to generate false scarcity in the market on never before seen scales. The real market price of anything that can be duplicated/delivered digitally is now, basically, $0 (that whole supply and demand thing).

But publishing Aangelica journal probably doesn’t put anyone in harm’s way, (it merely upsets Aangelica) so I guess that would be okay.

You’re “not totally convinced”? Sheesh. This is even worse than I remember.

And by “nonprivate” you mean publishing an artist’s work (that has never left their house, and that they most emphatically wish to remain unpublished). As long as someone has “access” to it (the plumber coming in for repairs), then it’s somehow “nonprivate” and therefore okay to be published.

You’re also okay with publishing something that would mortify the artist—something that they feel is very private (as long as they dare show it to even one person, and that person breaks their trust and publishes it, or if the hypothetical plumber finds it). That’s obviously “nonprivate” too—because the artist showed it to one person, (or allowed a plumber in the house) so that means that it’s okay for the entire world to see it as well.

And you’re also okay with the artist never getting paid anything for their work, as long as someone can get to their work first and give it away to everyone.

And still you seem to get your feathers ruffled when I deduce from this that you don’t give a damn about the individual creator.

If that’s a good reason to ban it, then I guess we’d better make it illegal to publish anything that upsets anyone.

If you want to relive that old thread, just go read it again. I’m not going to reenact it here.