# Do Dead Brand Names Have Any Value? **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [December 21, 2015, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-dead-brand-names-have-any-value/741039 "2015-12-21T23:33:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![h.sapiens](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e0b2c6/32.png) [@h.sapiens](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/h.sapiens)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2015, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-dead-brand-names-have-any-value/741039/21 "2015-12-22T18:22:27Z")
A company calling itself [Pan Am](http://panam.com/shop.html) is selling reproductions of the old flight bags, as well as other accessories and clothing. I don’t know what, if any, connection they have to the defunct airline. ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2015, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-dead-brand-names-have-any-value/741039/22 "2015-12-22T18:28:38Z")
[Indian Motorcycle](http://www.indianmotorcycle.com/en-us/history) was worth a lot as a dead brand. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Lowry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@Sam\_Lowry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Lowry)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2015, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-dead-brand-names-have-any-value/741039/23 "2015-12-22T18:50:46Z")
> [@hogarth](#): > > Actually, now that I think about it, they asserted that the Hydrox brand had been abandoned and I don’t believe they paid for the rights to use the name. Maybe I should just listen to the podcast again… [The transcript is online.](http://www.npr.org/templates/transcript/transcript.php?storyId=441546748) Apparently, if a company isn’t using a trademark, then someone else can use it: > [@](#): > > KESTENBAUM: So in order for Ellia to get the Hydrox trademark, he had to show that Kellogg’s had no plans to use it. And Ellia was sort of cagey about this, but I pulled up the documents that he filed. And one of the things he cites is a Wikipedia entry. OK. But also he includes this letter from Kellogg’s. Basically, he wrote to Kellogg’s saying, hi, I understand you’re still making Hydrox cookies. Can you tell me if you only make them as topping crumble or whole cookies? Where can I find them? > > SMITH: So he’s pretending to be a customer saying, like, oh, I really love Hydrox. Where are they? > > KESTENBAUM: And he got a formal letter back with the Kellogg’s logo on the top and says thank you for contacting us. We are sorry to tell you that this item did not have enough fans and was discontinued. So basically he found out from Kellogg’s that they weren’t making Hydrox, that it had been discontinued, then he sent it in to the US Trademark Office saying he wants to use the trademark, and sent paperwork to Kellogg’s attorneys. Kellogg’s never replied, and after a year the Tradmark office said he could use it. > [@Claverhouse](#): > > Not being American, the name Hydrox — of which I have never heard — would make me think in order: > 1/ Hyrax, the charming little rodent-like chap distantly related to elephants > > 2/ Hydrox the diving gas, and/or Hydrogen Chloride, which is not a diving gas and should by no means to taken along as a substitute > > 3/ The Hydra, Serpent-Headed, of Greek myth > > Anyway, I wouldn’t feel tempted. I’d wondered about the name too, they also address that in the podcast: > [@](#): > > KESTENBAUM: Carolyn says Hydrox died for a couple reasons. One is the thing that Ellia Kassoff worked so hard to get - the name. A hundred years ago when Hydroxy was launched, it was meant to invoke purity, like water, hydrogen dioxide. But by the 1990s, she says that was not what the name made people think of. It was a name that made more sense at the time, and not as much anymore. There are apparently some big fans of the original Hydrox that would be excited for it to come back, but I’d be surprised if many new people became fans. It is available on Amazon, and he’s trying to get it into stores. Also, the podcast mentions a site where you can search if trademarks are live or dead, I don’t see the URL mentioned, [but I’m guessing it’s this site](http://www.uspto.gov/trademarks-getting-started/trademark-basics/searching-marks-uspto-database). ---
**Author:** ![OneCentStamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/13edae/32.png) [@OneCentStamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OneCentStamp)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2015, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-dead-brand-names-have-any-value/741039/24 "2015-12-22T19:13:51Z")
> [@bup](#): > > [Indian Motorcycle](http://www.indianmotorcycle.com/en-us/history) was worth a lot as a dead brand. Man, that dead brand has changed hands quite a few times in 100 years! And like the guitar brands I named upthread, the buyouts have been a combination of the new owners actually trying to revive Indian models, and simply branding their own models with the Indian name. An Indian showroom opened up here in downtown SLC a few years ago…literally right next door to the Harley-Davidson dealership. They put you under in 1953, and you want to challenge them now that they’ve had six more decades to build their brand into ubiquity. Riiiiiight. :smack: It went about as well as you might expect, and the dealership is now mixed-use office space…with the Indian branding still on the outside of the structure. So now people have offices at “the Indian building.” ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2015, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-dead-brand-names-have-any-value/741039/25 "2015-12-22T19:19:10Z")
> [@Diceman](#): > > I’ve seen (and eaten) Hydrox cookies. They looked & tasted like cheap knockoffs of Oreos. So, I really hope Leaf didn’t spend much money buying the Hydrox name, because I doubt rather strongly that it has much value left. [Oreos are the knock-offs.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrox) ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2015, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-dead-brand-names-have-any-value/741039/26 "2015-12-22T19:47:39Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > [Oreos are the knock-offs.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrox) Not anymore 😉 Seriously, Oreos simply tasted better than Hydrox. There was a good reason Hydrox ended up in the dustbin, and Oreo didn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2015, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-dead-brand-names-have-any-value/741039/27 "2015-12-22T22:52:24Z")
> [@Diceman](#): > > Not anymore 😉 > > Seriously, Oreos simply tasted better than Hydrox. There was a good reason Hydrox ended up in the dustbin, and Oreo didn’t. Do you consider the eating of oysters to be moral and the eating of snails to be immoral? ---
**Author:** ![Duckster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duckster/32/1244_2.png) [@Duckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duckster)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2015, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-dead-brand-names-have-any-value/741039/28 "2015-12-22T22:57:03Z")
> [@HeXen](#): > > I remember Zenith, they made TV’s. I’m sure if someone used that brand name again on a TV, I’d be tempted to buy it based from nostalgia. Go for it! - [Zenith Electronics - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zenith_Electronics) ---
**Author:** ![Ranger\_Jeff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranger_jeff/32/2065_2.png) [@Ranger\_Jeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranger_Jeff)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2015, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-dead-brand-names-have-any-value/741039/29 "2015-12-23T00:44:26Z")
The current owners of Abercrombie and Fitch bought the name from the original owners. Do dead brand names have any value? I think everything is worth whatever someone else is willing to pay the owner for. ---
**Author:** ![boffking](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/858c86/32.png) [@boffking](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/boffking)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2015, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-dead-brand-names-have-any-value/741039/30 "2015-12-23T01:27:58Z")
> [@h.sapiens](#): > > A company calling itself [Pan Am](http://panam.com/shop.html) is selling reproductions of the old flight bags, as well as other accessories and clothing. I don’t know what, if any, connection they have to the defunct airline. I wonder if they are connected with Pan Am Railways. They bought the Pan Am name a while ago ( They were Guilford until 2006). ---
**Author:** ![usedtobe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ec9cab/32.png) [@usedtobe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/usedtobe)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2015, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-dead-brand-names-have-any-value/741039/31 "2015-12-23T01:44:05Z")
> [@botsgotme](#): > > Regarding studebaker: their “Avanti” model was revived several times…does the presnt owner of the Avanti name own Studebaker? Ig so, it was (at least initially) a separate purchase - Studebaker sold the Avanti operation (fiberglass body) and retained the rest of the line. Only the 61 and 62 Avantis were Stude’s (IIRC). Both the new Avanti company and Studebaker were running after that. The only thing Studebaker had going for it by the 50’s was a brilliant designer - not only the Avanti, but the 1957-58 Golden and Silver Hawks are superb stylings. ---
**Author:** ![smithsb](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smithsb/32/12107_2.png) [@smithsb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smithsb)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2015, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-dead-brand-names-have-any-value/741039/32 "2015-12-23T03:30:09Z")
Shopsmith makes woodworking tools. The current iteration makes no bones about how it’s not responsible for the early units produced after WWII and any Sears branded machines. ---
**Author:** ![botsgotme](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@botsgotme](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/botsgotme)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2015, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-dead-brand-names-have-any-value/741039/33 "2015-12-23T05:30:31Z")
> [@Ranger\_Jeff](#): > > The current owners of Abercrombie and Fitch bought the name from the original owners. > > Do dead brand names have any value? I think everything is worth whatever someone else is willing to pay the owner for. That’s an interesting case…the old A & F was a dept. store catering to the old money crowd. The present firm sells overpriced sportswear to the teenager market, using attractive photos of nekkid kids. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2015, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-dead-brand-names-have-any-value/741039/34 "2015-12-23T12:35:29Z")
> [@OneCentStamp](#): > > It happens all the time in the world of guitar manufacturers, where the big two names, Fender and Gibson, routinely bring back their slain competitors as zombie servants. Just off the top of my head, Fender has zombified DeArmond, Guild, and Gretsch; and Gibson has done the same with Epiphone, Kramer, and Steinberger. But there are so many more - probably dozens. What’s really amazing is when a Brand or even just a historical name is bought or at least used in a business simply to invoke heritage that doesn’t exist. Guitar brand names like Recording King (an old Montgomery Ward brand that was sometimes made by Gibson), Maurer (a really obscure old brand), Loar (named after Lloyd Loar the guy whose instrument designs brought Gibson into the modern era) and even D’Angelico (single NY luthier known for legendary handmade archtops) - have all been put to work in recent years. ---
**Author:** ![stillownedbysetters](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/41988e/32.png) [@stillownedbysetters](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stillownedbysetters)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2015, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-dead-brand-names-have-any-value/741039/35 "2015-12-23T18:24:02Z")
> [@usedtobe](#): > > Ig so, it was (at least initially) a separate purchase - Studebaker sold the Avanti operation (fiberglass body) and retained the rest of the line. > Only the 61 and 62 > Avantis were Stude’s (IIRC). > Both the new Avanti company and Studebaker were running after that. > > The only thing Studebaker had going for it by the 50’s was a brilliant designer - not only the Avanti, but the 1957-58 Golden and Silver Hawks are superb stylings. After Studebaker picked up and ran to Canada, Avanti got passed around more than a $5 hooker on a Saturday night. Here’s a wee bit of the history of the brand: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avanti\_cars\_(non-Studebaker)](http://https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avanti_cars_(non-Studebaker)) Interesting side tidbit - the Newman and Altman families who were the first purchasers post-Stude, produced modern-day NASCAR driver, Ryan Newman, who is the grandson of Leo Newman. ---
**Author:** ![August\_West](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/august_west/32/18069_2.png) [@August\_West](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/August_West)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2015, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-dead-brand-names-have-any-value/741039/36 "2015-12-23T19:04:06Z")
> [@kunilou](#): > > Beer brands get passed around like cold sores. Schlitz was as dead as a brand could get (a change in formulation caused allergic reactions that actually killed several people.) The name is now owned by Pabst. Schlitz never killed anyone, at least not directly. The decline and fall of Schlitz was caused by letting the accountants take over and implement every penny-saving idea they could imagine. The quality of the beer turned to shit and people stopped buying it, especially after one “innovation” caused floatie bits, leading to a recall of ~10 million bottles of beer. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_R.Mortiss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim_r.mortiss/32/142_2.png) [@Tim\_R.Mortiss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_R.Mortiss)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2015, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-dead-brand-names-have-any-value/741039/37 "2015-12-23T20:59:42Z")
Trademarks (such as brand names) need to be \*used \*by their owners in order to maintain rights to them. If they remain unused for a long enough time (three years?), they are considered abandoned, and enter the public domain. At that point, they have zero monetary value in terms of being able to sell them, but certainly may retain marketing value for anyone choosing to use them. I am not a lawyer, but my understanding is that abandonment is a fuzzy concept and frequently requires a judge’s ruling to decide if it has occurred or not. ---
**Author:** ![installLSC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/54ee81/32.png) [@installLSC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/installLSC)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2015, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-dead-brand-names-have-any-value/741039/38 "2015-12-24T01:41:19Z")
Of course they do. Why else would you find Westinghouse or RCA TVs in stores when those companies died years ago? The Studebaker story is mostly a story of bad management. They paid big money for dividends and the best labor contracts in the industry, but wouldn’t spend money to update a horribly out of date plant in South Bend. When a perfect storm of a poorly received design/end of Korean War contracts/all out price war between Ford and GM happened in the mid-50s, their business collapsed. Outside of a year or two after the introduction of the Lark, they lost money and lost it big for the next decade. ---
**Author:** ![boffking](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/858c86/32.png) [@boffking](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/boffking)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2015, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-dead-brand-names-have-any-value/741039/39 "2015-12-24T01:54:42Z")
> [@installLSC](#): > > Of course they do. Why else would you find Westinghouse or RCA TVs in stores when those companies died years ago? > . If Westinghouse died years ago, then why is there a huge Westinghouse power plant in Newington, NH that is still active? ---
**Author:** ![installLSC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/54ee81/32.png) [@installLSC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/installLSC)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2015, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-dead-brand-names-have-any-value/741039/40 "2015-12-24T03:18:49Z")
> [@boffking](#): > > If Westinghouse died years ago, then why is there a huge Westinghouse power plant in Newington, NH that is still active? [They’re just licensing the brand name from CBS.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westinghouse_Licensing_Corporation) When the original Westinghouse merged with CBS, they ended up selling the non-broadcasting businesses. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-dead-brand-names-have-any-value/741039.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-dead-brand-names-have-any-value/741039.md?page=3)