# Do dogs love their owners? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 14, 2009, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-dogs-love-their-owners/496401 "2009-05-14T13:05:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/half_man_half_wit/32/21766_2.png) [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Half_Man_Half_Wit)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2009, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-dogs-love-their-owners/496401/61 "2009-05-16T16:52:19Z")
> [@](#): > > An opinion is \*not \*simply a fact you cannot prove. But, in the absence of provable facts, opinions are all you have – namely, opinions on what the facts most likely are. These may be more or less informed, and there may be evidence for either or both sides; there may be different conclusions one can draw from the evidence, on which people can disagree; this, in turn, opens up the possibility for debate, which is kinda what we’re doing here. Frankly, this is getting a little too bizarre and off topic for me, so it’s probably for the best that I drop out. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2009, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-dogs-love-their-owners/496401/62 "2009-05-16T16:54:58Z")
When we fly, we have to board our dogs. It’s a nice place. REAL nice. They have an in ground heated pool 4’ deep just for the dogs. Home made treats. Indoor play area with rubberized floor it the weather is bad…… Did I say it was nice? Do our dogs love us? Well they sure act like it when we pick them up. After all the fun and activity at what is basically a dog spa, they want nothing more than to be with us. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2009, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-dogs-love-their-owners/496401/63 "2009-05-16T17:32:02Z")
> [@Krokodil](#): > > They might love us, but you have to really dumb down the definition of “love.” That would be a neat trick. Because, first you’d have to PIN down a definition of “love.” ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2009, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-dogs-love-their-owners/496401/64 "2009-05-16T18:16:13Z")
> [@Patch](#): > > If I learned that by showing up at a certain time at a certain location I’d be fed by all the nice people, I’d make a habit of it for ten years, too, prior owner or no. Well… The dog originally went back to its old home. Did that for a bit, no master, no treats. Then it went to the train station. I am willing to bet for a long time no treats there either. It took awhile before passengers noticed the repeated behavior of the dog and thought to feed it. Was the dog planning far ahead into the future knowing that if it kept this up treats would ensue? Not to mention the dog had a home and all the food it could likely want. Not to mention if the motivation was treats at the train station why show up only when its former owner’s train would show up? I’d think to a doggie mind, if treats was the motivation, it’d show up at any given time and stay all day. Or do you think the dog figured that in order to get treats it needed to concoct a heart wrenching circumstance? And of course we have the people of that city utterly fooled by the dog which was there only for treats. They erected a monument to a dog apparently not realizing the dog was just a treat whore. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2009, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-dogs-love-their-owners/496401/65 "2009-05-16T18:33:04Z")
> [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](#): > > Wow. You’re a real class act. And you are avoiding the questions I posted. But hey…when you’ve got nothing to say attack the person making the argument. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2009, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-dogs-love-their-owners/496401/66 "2009-05-16T18:38:14Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > The hard part, of course, is defining love (is it observable behavior? Is it an intellectual process? Is it a chemical cocktail in the brain?), An important addition to this, I think, is there is no reason to suspect “love” for humans works in an entirely different fashion than it does for dogs. If it is all about treats for the dog then it is for humans too. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2009, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-dogs-love-their-owners/496401/67 "2009-05-17T01:01:28Z")
> [@scifisam2009](#): > > Am I the only one who finds it amusing that someone called Katz is criticising dogs? 😃 Actually, if you read any of his books, I think you’ll have a hard time finding anything criticizing dogs. Instead, he merely acknowledges that they are vastly different from humans. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2009, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-dogs-love-their-owners/496401/68 "2009-05-17T01:19:12Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > I’m sure this has been done before, but a couple of recent newspaper columns brought it to mind. A couple of days ago Chicago Trib columnist Eric Zorn wrote a letter about a woman who jumped into a lake to save her dog. He said (paraphrased), “Your dog doesn’t love you, and mine doesn’t love me either.” Citing John Katz (Bedlam Farm) as a source, he said dogs are social parasites and act as tho they love us because that has proven successful in getting us to feed and care for them. > > Today’s paper had reply of sorts from another columnist, Jonas Greenburg (or something similar). > > So I put it to you - do dogs love their owners, or do they merely act as tho they do? I am pretty firmly in the “parasite” camp. Which isn’t to say how dogs act towards their owners is a bad thing. Just not generally a wise move to attribute human emotions and motivations to different species. I don’t like dogs. I used to be downright phobic of them, but a lot of therapy has gotten me to the point that I merely despise the disgusting little ratcatchers. That said, what the hell does “act like they do” mean? What does ‘social parasites’ even think it means? Not a damn thing, that’s what. Unless you are Charles Xavier or Deanna Troi, you don’t know what’s going on in any other creatures mind–only what they act like. To make a categorical statement like that is simply stupid, given that dogs evince a great deal of emotion. Hell, the average dog is a lot more emotional than my cats. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2009, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-dogs-love-their-owners/496401/69 "2009-05-17T04:19:02Z")
The average dog secretly resents and hates its owner. They see us having unlimited access to the refrigerator and contents of the cupboards. We have big delicious hot meals, the odors of which drive them crazy. If they’re lucky, we toss them a few tidbits while we wolf down the rest. They fantasize about killing and eating us. That’s why their paws twitch when they’re sleeping. I’d hate to be a dog owner when the frustration reaches a flash point, communal psychic energies flame into open rebellion and even the tiniest Chihuahua becomes a raging Cujo. It won’t be pretty. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2009, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-dogs-love-their-owners/496401/70 "2009-05-17T05:41:44Z")
> [@E-Sabbath](#): > > The dog has lived with man for longer than any other species, and closer to man than any other, as well. They are closer to us than the chimpanzee, for we, in a very real way, evolved together, socially. We became human, sentient, sapient, with the dog as our companion and ally. > > Is it truly that strange to think we have not affected them as well? If any animal can love like humans do, it _must_ be the dog. (Independently, the elephant and chimpanzee appear to show signs of it, as well.) But the dog, of all the animals, is most like us. We can communicate best with him, and he with us. > > Or perhaps, we are most like him. > > Either way, the only way to deny that dogs love, is to follow the same path that denies other humans think. I know I think… but I can not prove you do. But you act like it, and so I _must_ give you the faith and credit you do. > > And the dog is the same way. > > Here is love, from a dog’s point of view. > [http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v449/LaPucelle/Kensie\_110208\_1012.jpg](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v449/LaPucelle/Kensie_110208_1012.jpg) > There are better places to watch TV from. Goodness knows, less _bumpy_ places. But… This. We and dogs have walked the past 50,000 to 150,000 (depending) years together. We are commensal species, and the relationship was conscious, positive, and encouraged, not accidental and negative, like with mice. Our genes suggest we love them, and their genes suggest they love us, if “love” means accepting the foibles of the other and, as a well-trained dog, ones place in the pack. After all, as the dominant species we supported natural selection by tossing the subdominant species in the cooking pot if it became too uppity. The remaining dogs should love the hell out of us, or off to the gas chambers they go. That’s how we made them, and how we make sure. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2009, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-dogs-love-their-owners/496401/71 "2009-05-17T06:16:07Z")
> [@Krokodil](#): > > There’s the “Aida/Sally Hemmings” argument: Love can’t exist between two people of vastly unequal status, especially if one owns the other and can use, exploit or kill it with no consequences. That’s a pretty stupid argument. For one thing, it implies that, absent an enforceable justice system, love cannot exist. I guess nobody ever loved each other before Hammurabi? ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2009, 6:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-dogs-love-their-owners/496401/72 "2009-05-17T06:55:53Z")
Miller, chill. Those that espouse a mechanistic, quid-pro-quo, definition of love are like Behaviorists, stuck on mechanism. They cannot be reasoned with because anything that argues with reason, as they define it, cannot be used as a valid argument. They want to be robots. And yeah, I normally hide that learned, intelligent part of me. I prefer being a dweeb. And the dumbest guy on the SDMB. It lowers expectations. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2009, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-dogs-love-their-owners/496401/73 "2009-05-19T04:31:29Z")
Are there some people who are too quick to ascribe higher thinking and deep emotions to animals? Sure. But I think the cynics are making an elementary mistake: they’re looking at the conditions enjoyed by dogs in modern America, and assuming those conditions have been typical of human-canine relations through history. Sure, TODAY, a poodle in Beverly Hills, a beagle in Plano, or a pug in Marblehead has it made, in Darwinian terms. Modern American dogs are well fed, pampered and spoiled, and are rarely expected to do very much except look cute. But to put it mildly, that has NOT been the case for most dogs over the past hundred thousand years! TODAY, we have so much food and money that we don’t mind wasting some of it on an animal that doesn’t give us anything but pleasure and affection. But a caveman, a peasant farmer or a medieval shepherd didn’t have that luxury. For them, food was usually in short supply, and starvation was always a very real possibility. If they chose to give food to dogs, rest assured it was NOT because the doggies were cuddly, did cute tricks, and gave that adorable, quizzical look! They gave food to dogs because the dogs gave them valuable services in exchange. For thousands of years, dogs had to earn their keep, and earn it they did. A border collie in the Scottish Highlands 500 years ago worked extremely hard, and was worth every morsel his master gave him. That dogs was NOT thinking, “Boy, have I got it made! These stupid humans are giving me free lunch!” He thought of himself as part of a large extended pack that included himself, a few other dogs, and his human masters, and he thought his pack was engaged in a great team effort that he was part of. Now, do wolves in the wild show affection to other wolves in their packs? Indeed they do. Practically ALL wild canines show affection toward other pack members, and engage in play with them. So, assuming a modern beagle thinks of his human owners as part of his pack, why WOULDN’T he occasionally show affection for them? No, we needn’t pretend that the dog is an intellectual giant, nor should we assume a dog is capable of every grand feeling we experience. But there’s no compelling reason to doubt that a dog’s simple emotions are sincere. ---
**Author:** ![Rick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9f8e36/32.png) [@Rick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2009, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-dogs-love-their-owners/496401/74 "2009-05-19T05:20:01Z")
one more item for you to consider. In her senior year of college my daughter adopted a rescue from the local shelter. (pit bull plus OG knows what) Anyway after graduation in June of 08 the dog moved in with us as my daughter’s apt did not allow pets. My wife feeds Toby the wonder dog. Yet after dinner while I am surfing the dope, is he on the couch with her? No he is curled up next to my desk. Natural you say, you, not your wife, is the pack leader. OK, I can buy that. But explain this. When my daughter comes over the dog goes ape shit over her and cannot restrain himself. he wags his tail so hard his front shoulders move from side to side. Now she has not taken care of him for almost 1 year. He drops my wife and I like a bad habit. Why would he act this way? The choices are: 1. He loves my daughter 2. He knows he was headed for the gas chamber, and is still thanking his savior. 3. ??? Boy if that isn’t love, I don’t know what is. ---
**Author:** ![DagNation](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ee7513/32.png) [@DagNation](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DagNation)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2009, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-dogs-love-their-owners/496401/75 "2009-05-19T05:46:03Z")
The difference between a human brain and a dog brain is mostly in mass and number of connections, not the basic way that it works. We have evolved the ability to communicate at a level that is unseen in any other animal, and that has allowed us to create a great body of shared information, and that has caused many of us to impose logic on our basically emotional brains. Dogs have the same basic emotions that we do (in their own form of course) but they don’t have the logic to be cynical about it. From a Darwinian perspective you can talk about how being our favorite animal has been “a good career move”, but to suggest it was intentional is far more anthropomorphizing than calling my dog’s emotional state love. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2009, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-dogs-love-their-owners/496401/76 "2009-05-19T05:47:26Z")
When we attribute human emotions to humans, such as loyalty like a dog, tired like a dog, are we making an error of caninepromorphizing? When we deny the attributes of emotion and thought to dogs, are we xenosolipsizing? Seriously, what do we mean by love and emotions? What do we mean when we ask does another species have similar attributes? Do dogs feel pain? Get angry? Experience joy? Get puzzled? Feel sad? Yes, without question. I’ve seen dogs go through all these emotions. Some with different intensity than others. My sister used to dog sit for friends. All the dogs liked to play with a tennis ball: I’d toss it, they’d retrieve it and bring it back. Some would put it down so it could be thrown again (few), some would refuse to part with it unless grabbed from their mouths (most). After a while of playing, I would engage in slight of hand and only pretend to throw it. Some caught on right away and didn’t chase, some chased for a few fake throws and gave up and some never got tired of chasing a fake throw. Some growled in what I perceived as anger. I got the same range of reactions when I did a feint of a hand change with the ball: at first they all thought that the same hand had the same ball, but when I turned over the hand most would “look surprised”. When repeated, some caught on that a trick was going on, some didn’t. Some knew what the trick was and checked the other hand or growled in anger. Dogs have a wide range of emotions, like people. And some are smarter and some are dumber. ---
**Author:** ![Jettboy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/85e7bf/32.png) [@Jettboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jettboy)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2009, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-dogs-love-their-owners/496401/77 "2009-05-19T14:13:18Z")
Of course not. Any behavior that a person interprets as ‘love’ from a dog is an anthropomorphic fantasy. Mr. Barky does _not_ love you; not in the way that humans love, anyway. Dogs are hard-wired to behave in a certain way; it’s an instinct-driven code that exists in every canine from wolves to chihuahuas. Dogs are by nature a pack animal, and (as noted by several posters), and they consider the human who owns them to be de facto members of their ‘pack’, oftentimes the pack leader, the Alpha Dog. In the wild, they exhibit the same behaviors as domesticated dogs; shows of affection, play, dominance, submission, nurturing and protection of the pack members or pack leader. When you think your dog loves you, is being loyal towards you, or is being your ‘friend’ it’s really just your dog being a _dog_. Don’t get me started on cats. ---
**Author:** ![Beadalin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3be4f8/32.png) [@Beadalin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beadalin)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2009, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-dogs-love-their-owners/496401/78 "2009-05-19T14:55:55Z")
Just heaping more anecdotes in here, because why not? My grandmother’s dog, Mindy, was a Welsh terrier. Mindy was quite attached to my grandmother, but liked our whole clan. Our family would often all go up to a cabin together, where Mindy had the run of the place and could hang out with whoever she felt like hanging out with. But, only my grandmother fed Mindy, or gave her treats. Still, sometimes Mindy would sit on my lap to get scritchies and cuddles. And, sometimes, Mindy would turn around to face me, and would put both her paws on my face and gently pat my cheeks, looking into my eyes. Mindy got nothing from me other than affection and company. I was not her alpha anything, I never gave her food, there was not reason for her to regard me as particularly special, but I don’t doubt for a second that she loved me. ---
**Author:** ![garygnu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/garygnu/32/2924_2.png) [@garygnu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/garygnu)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2009, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-dogs-love-their-owners/496401/79 "2009-05-19T16:20:34Z")
**Jettboy** , did you read any of the rest of the thread? The set of questions that I still haven’t seen answered by those in your camp is: 1. Are emotions exclusive to the human species? 2. Do dogs feel any emotions at all? 3. Why is love different than other emotions? To me, if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it’s a duck. ---
**Author:** ![Candyman74](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Candyman74](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Candyman74)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2009, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-dogs-love-their-owners/496401/80 "2009-05-19T16:32:58Z")
I’ve solved the debate. I asked my dog if he loved me, and he responded by trying to slip the tongue in. This is clearly proof that he does. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-dogs-love-their-owners/496401.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-dogs-love-their-owners/496401.md?page=5)