# Do European royals claim to be unlike commoners? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 3, 2007, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-european-royals-claim-to-be-unlike-commoners/417926 "2007-09-03T19:16:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Hobohob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/eb9ed0/32.png) [@Hobohob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hobohob)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2007, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-european-royals-claim-to-be-unlike-commoners/417926/1 "2007-09-03T19:16:24Z")
Besides the ranks and privileges supplied them by the various governments, do they adopt a pose of “royal blood” that is separate from the ordinary, or even perhaps divine will being expressed in their line’s ascension? ( say European because I’m sure some eastern and African monarchs claim a mortal form of divinity) ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2007, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-european-royals-claim-to-be-unlike-commoners/417926/2 "2007-09-03T20:55:50Z")
Today, the answer is no simply because any other public stance would get the monarchies abolished tomorrow. ---
**Author:** ![mbh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@mbh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mbh)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2007, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-european-royals-claim-to-be-unlike-commoners/417926/3 "2007-09-03T22:26:32Z")
Before Christianity, many claimed divine descent. Julius Caesar’s family claimed to be descended from the goddess Venus. Hengist and Horsa claimed to be descended from Wodan. After converting to Christianity, many royal families came up with bogus pedigrees tracing their bloodlines back to King David. Or at least to Charlemagne. The Germans, it has been said, “developed snobbery into a high art”. In some of the German principalities, your formal title (baron, count, prince) was less important than your family’s status as “sovereign”, “old noble”, “new noble”, or “common”. If two people of different classes married, their children would inherit the status of the lower-ranking parent. A commoner might be ennobled by a monarch, but the “old noble” families would never consider him an equal. The 20th Century brought an end to the legal barriers between the classes. The social barriers are more persistent. ---
**Author:** ![threemae](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5f9b8f/32.png) [@threemae](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/threemae)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2007, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-european-royals-claim-to-be-unlike-commoners/417926/4 "2007-09-03T22:45:38Z")
Are there really still intact social barriers regarding former nobility titles? Do well-to-do modern Germans or any other Western nation for that matter actually consider the familial status in deciding upon a marriage partner? ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2007, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-european-royals-claim-to-be-unlike-commoners/417926/5 "2007-09-03T22:46:17Z")
In the case of the British Monarchy, the issue of divine will and right was one of the things we had something of a civil war about. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2007, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-european-royals-claim-to-be-unlike-commoners/417926/6 "2007-09-03T22:54:56Z")
None of the seated Royalty that I know about. But there are some rather fringie Pretenders. ---
**Author:** ![kellner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c2a13f/32.png) [@kellner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kellner)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2007, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-european-royals-claim-to-be-unlike-commoners/417926/7 "2007-09-03T23:33:16Z")
[QUOTE=mbh] A commoner might be ennobled by a monarch, but the “old noble” families would never consider him an equal. [/QUOTE] Once I met a guy who told us that one of his relatives had a sign on his front door: “Peddlers and new nobles please use the back door” In this context new nobles are those who can’t trace their noble lineage further back than about 1400 or who have any known commoners in their male line. > [@threemae](#): > > Are there really still intact social barriers regarding former nobility titles? Do well-to-do modern Germans or any other Western nation for that matter actually consider the familial status in deciding upon a marriage partner? It’s a minority but yes, absolutely. You mention “well-to-do.” Although many of those people are wealthier than average, keep in mind that for the nobility it’s not really about money. ---
**Author:** ![brianmelendez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/65b543/32.png) [@brianmelendez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brianmelendez)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2007, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-european-royals-claim-to-be-unlike-commoners/417926/8 "2007-09-03T23:53:37Z")
[QUOTE=mbh] Before Christianity, many claimed divine descent. Julius Caesar’s family claimed to be descended from the goddess Venus. Hengist and Horsa claimed to be descended from Wodan. [/QUOTE] While the British royal family no longer makes similar claims for itself, such claims are still made on its behalf – not made seriously, but at least made according to tradition. For example, for years I have read various versions of The Matter of Britain, the cycle of stories that culminates in the Arthurian romances. The versions that I have read all trace the British nation’s mythic origins to the island’s settlement by Brutus the Trojan, great-grandson of Aeneas and first king of the Britons, who take their name from him: > [@](#): > > The illustrious poet, Milton, in his “History of England,” is the author whom we chiefly follow in this chapter. > > According to the earliest accounts, Albion, a giant, and son of Neptune, a contemporary of Hercules, ruled over the island, to which he gave his name… > > Another story is that Histion, the son of Japhet, the son of Noah, had four sons, Francus, Romanus, Alemannus, and Britto, from whom descended the French, Roman, German, and British people. > > Rejecting these and other like stories, Milton gives more regard to the story of Brutus, the Trojan, which, he says, is supported by “descents of ancestry long continued, laws and exploits not plainly seeming to be borrowed or devised, which on the common belief have wrought no small impression; defended by many; denied utterly by few.” The principal authority is Geoffrey of Monmouth, whose history, written in the twelfth century, purports to be a translation of a history of Britain brought over from the opposite shore of France, which, under the name of Brittany, was chiefly peopled by natives of Britain who, from time to time, emigrated thither, driven from their own country by the inroads of the Picts and Scots. According to this authority, Brutus was the son of Silvius, and he of Ascanius, the son of Aeneas… > > If our readers ask when all this took place, we must answer, in the first instance, that mythology is not careful of dates; and next, that, as Brutus was the great-grandson of Aeneas, it must have been not far from a century subsequent to the Trojan war, or about eleven hundred years before the invasion of the island by Julius Caesar. This long interval is filled with the names of princes whose chief occupation was in warring with one another… > > The Romans eventually succeeded in establishing themselves in the island, and after the lapse of several generations they became blended with the natives so that no distinction existed between the two races. When at length the Roman armies were withdrawn from Britain, their departure was a matter of regret to the inhabitants, as it left them without protection against the barbarous tribes … who harassed the country incessantly. This was the state of things when the era of King Arthur began. Thomas Bulfinch, _Bulfinch’s Mythology_, pp. 378-79 (New York: Avenel Books, 1979). Joy Chant’s chronicle _The High Kings_ tells a similar story of Julius Ceasar’s conquest, when the Roman general reached terms with the British king Cassibellaunus: > [@](#): > > At that they [Caesar and Cassibellaunus] laughed, and clasped hands, and swore friendship together; and the nobles of Britain acclaimed them. That night Romans and Britons feasted together, and a strong alliance was sworn between them, and great Julius conferred on every free man of Britain the citizenship of Rome. Thus met the two races of Trojan descent, and the divided heirs of Aeneas were united, and found in one another the equals they had not found before in all the world. Joy Chant, _The High Kings_, pp. 166-67 (Toronto: Bantam Books, 1983). We can write off those stories as an outdated mythology and, in any case, it isn’t clear that Cassibelaunus and Arthur are the House of Windsor’s lineal predecessors. But even such a modern source as _Burke’s Peerage_, just about as close to an authoritative register of the British nobility as you can find, gets into the act with a different account of the royal house’s mythical origins: > [@](#): > > After the invasion of the former Roman province of Britain by the ancient English, a number of dynasties were established in England, each having sway over part of the country and **each claiming descent from the god Woden**. It became the custom for the various kings south of the river Humber to acknowledge an overlord, and in the reign of the famous Offa, King of the Mercians there occurs for the first time in one of his official documents the famous phrase-- _Rex totius Anglorum patriae_, King of all England. Offa reigned 757-796 and his descent was traced from a namesake who had reigned over the English in their old home 400 years before in what is now Schleswig. By 825, however, supremacy among the English kingdoms south of Humber passed to Egbert, King of Wessex, to whom the _Anglo-Saxon Chronicle_ applies the term “Bretwalda,” or Ruler of Britain. _Burke’s Peerage_, p. ccli (99th ed. 1949) (boldface added). ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2007, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-european-royals-claim-to-be-unlike-commoners/417926/9 "2007-09-04T03:51:30Z")
Unless I am mistaken, I believe that William, should he become the king, will be the first king in recent history to be descended from all of the monarchs of Great Britain. The late Princess of Wales supplied “the missing links” so to speak. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2007, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-european-royals-claim-to-be-unlike-commoners/417926/10 "2007-09-04T14:08:23Z")
All the monachs? I need a cite. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2007, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-european-royals-claim-to-be-unlike-commoners/417926/11 "2007-09-04T14:48:59Z")
[QUOTE=Zoe] Unless I am mistaken, I believe that William, should he become the king, will be the first king in recent history to be descended from all of the monarchs of Great Britain. The late Princess of Wales supplied “the missing links” so to speak. [/QUOTE] That’s not true, if for no other reason than that Edward VIII had no children. ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2007, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-european-royals-claim-to-be-unlike-commoners/417926/12 "2007-09-04T14:54:59Z")
[QUOTE=Captain Amazing] That’s not true, if for no other reason than that Edward VIII had no children. [/QUOTE] And Queen Anne only had one child, who died at the age of 11 without issue, so no one can be descended from her either. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2007, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-european-royals-claim-to-be-unlike-commoners/417926/13 "2007-09-04T15:09:11Z")
George IV’s daughter also died without issue. ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2007, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-european-royals-claim-to-be-unlike-commoners/417926/14 "2007-09-04T15:24:14Z")
[QUOTE=acsenray] George IV’s daughter also died without issue. [/QUOTE] It’s possible that George IV had illegitimate descendants. He did have an illegal marriage with Mrs Fitzherbert (though I don’t think they had any children). ---
**Author:** ![Wallenstein](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b5a626/32.png) [@Wallenstein](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wallenstein)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2007, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-european-royals-claim-to-be-unlike-commoners/417926/15 "2007-09-04T16:21:14Z")
[QUOTE=threemae] Are there really still intact social barriers regarding former nobility titles? Do well-to-do modern Germans or any other Western nation for that matter actually consider the familial status in deciding upon a marriage partner? [/QUOTE] There are plenty of UK families for whom “marrying correctly” is still a high priority. It doesn’t confer much (any?) actual influence and power, but if you mix in those circles it remains important for some. The mother of Kate Middleton, Prince William’s on-off girlfriend, used to be an air hostess. When Wills and Kate split recently, there were stories suggesting that Will’s posh mates used to whisper “Doors to manual” whenever Kate was around, in a not-so-subtle dig at her “common” breeding. Mrs Middleton has also been [slated](There were even worse social sins, such as using the word “toilet” not “lavatory”, saying “pleased to meet you” rather than “how do you do?”, and “pardon” rather than “what?”.) for chewing gum, shaking hands with the Queen, and using the word “toilet” not “lavatory”, saying “pleased to meet you” rather than “how do you do?”, and “pardon” rather than “what?”. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2007, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-european-royals-claim-to-be-unlike-commoners/417926/16 "2007-09-04T19:41:01Z")
[QUOTE=mbh] The Germans, it has been said, “developed snobbery into a high art”. In some of the German principalities, your formal title (baron, count, prince) was less important than your family’s status as “sovereign”, “old noble”, “new noble”, or “common”. [/QUOTE] This is basically true. Apparently the nobility would refer to themselves as _geborene_ (meaning “people who had been born”), and to commoners as _geworfene_, that word meaning born but normally used only of animals. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2007, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-european-royals-claim-to-be-unlike-commoners/417926/17 "2007-09-04T19:43:05Z")
[QUOTE=e-logic] When Wills and Kate split recently, there were stories suggesting that Will’s posh mates used to whisper “Doors to manual” whenever Kate was around, in a not-so-subtle dig at her “common” breeding. [/QUOTE] It’s subtle to me. What does that mean, “Doors to manual”? ---
**Author:** ![williambaskerville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f14d63/32.png) [@williambaskerville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/williambaskerville)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2007, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-european-royals-claim-to-be-unlike-commoners/417926/18 "2007-09-04T19:52:53Z")
[QUOTE=Spectre of Pithecanthropus] It’s subtle to me. What does that mean, “Doors to manual”? [/QUOTE] As noted earlier, Ms. Midleton’s mother was an air hostess. It usually comes over the intercom when a plane lands, I think it means that the doors are now set to be opened manually, without the emergency chute emerging. On the Prince William claim :- am I not correct in thinking that Henry the Eighth had no descendants ? (Children, yes, but none of them produced heirs). ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2007, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-european-royals-claim-to-be-unlike-commoners/417926/19 "2007-09-04T19:57:40Z")
[QUOTE=williambaskerville] On the Prince William claim :- am I not correct in thinking that Henry the Eighth had no descendants ? (Children, yes, but none of them produced heirs). [/QUOTE] He had three descendants who were themselves monarchs of England – Edward VI, Mary and Elizabeth – but none of those had any children. However, the claim relates to monarchs of Great Britain, and the first of those was Elizabeth’s successor, James I of England and VI of Scotland. ---
**Author:** ![Wallenstein](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b5a626/32.png) [@Wallenstein](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wallenstein)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2007, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-european-royals-claim-to-be-unlike-commoners/417926/20 "2007-09-04T20:19:04Z")
[QUOTE=Spectre of Pithecanthropus] It’s subtle to me. What does that mean, “Doors to manual”? [/QUOTE] Sorry, yes as noted it’s a phrase airline captains use over the intercom as the plane taxis to its final parking place. “Cabin crew, doors to manual and cross check” means the doors can be opened without the emergency chute deploying. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-european-royals-claim-to-be-unlike-commoners/417926.md?page=2)