# Do Europeans have different attitudes than Americans about the sanctity of property? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [July 4, 2008, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-europeans-have-different-attitudes-than-americans-about-the-sanctity-of-property/455271 "2008-07-04T06:01:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2008, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-europeans-have-different-attitudes-than-americans-about-the-sanctity-of-property/455271/81 "2008-07-06T17:08:33Z")
The American propensity for gun use when compared to Euros does not necessarily mean that Americans hold private property rights with greater sanctity. It is entirely possible that Euros and Americans both value their private property to equal degrees, with Americans chosing guns as one of many methods of enforcing their rights. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2008, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-europeans-have-different-attitudes-than-americans-about-the-sanctity-of-property/455271/82 "2008-07-06T17:52:39Z")
[QUOTE=Cub Mistress] One thing I don’t think you are taking into consideration is how likely the intruder is to have a gun. I believe it is much more likely here in the US, and therefore a homeowner is much more likely to be facing an armed intruder than, say, he would be in England. [/QUOTE] You may be right. But as far as I’m concerned, anything used to break into the house is a weapon. Including the burglar themselves. Home invasion burglary seems to be much more pervasive in countries with strict gun laws. No, I don’t have any stats. How does that go down? Anyone experience it? My Wife and I have two 65lb dogs. I really don’t know what they would do. They are a good alarm system. And I have no intention on counting on them to defend my Wife and me. And yes, if someone broke into my house, the life of my dog is more important than that of the burglar. I own guns. Everyone has been handed down to me. I do enjoy shooting them, but my life certainly does not revolve around them. I consider myself to be a pretty common gun owner for the US. I can identify (within reason) the type, and use just about any firearm. Sanctity of property is not the right way to look at this. It is the sanctity of safety. It is about not being violated and becoming a victim. ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2008, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-europeans-have-different-attitudes-than-americans-about-the-sanctity-of-property/455271/83 "2008-07-06T19:09:03Z")
[QUOTE=Chimera] Perhaps not, especially among a population with no experience using guns. But I’d bet that after a year or two of rather high casualties among burglars, the burglary rate would drop to near zero. [/QUOTE] Possibly. More than likely, it won’t just be burglars getting killed, though. ---
**Author:** ![Bobotheoptimist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/919ad9/32.png) [@Bobotheoptimist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bobotheoptimist)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2008, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-europeans-have-different-attitudes-than-americans-about-the-sanctity-of-property/455271/84 "2008-07-06T20:06:52Z")
[QUOTE=Capt. Ridley’s Shooting Party] Possibly. More than likely, it won’t just be burglars getting killed, though. [/QUOTE] Right! Also rapists, abusive spouses, & etc. Surely Brits are smarter and more self controlled than us wild Yanks and they (you) would be able to refrain from shooting random people in the streets at least as well as we do (relaxed concealed carry laws across the nation have not resulted in the bloodshed predicted, Europe should be able to do even better, right?) ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2008, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-europeans-have-different-attitudes-than-americans-about-the-sanctity-of-property/455271/85 "2008-07-06T20:30:34Z")
[QUOTE=Bobotheoptimist] Right! Also rapists, abusive spouses, & etc. [/QUOTE] Neighbors you don’t like, drunks who stumble into the wrong yard, children who get up in the middle of the night, spouses you’d rather not divorce, pets who make too much noise, people in the house next door who just happen to be in the path of a stray bullet… Such things can be carried too far and I think that’s the point **CRSP** was trying to make. But for my own part, I’d rather live in a society where I have the right to own firearms and to defend myself with them, than a society that thinks that I cannot be trusted to do either. ---
**Author:** ![Bobotheoptimist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/919ad9/32.png) [@Bobotheoptimist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bobotheoptimist)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2008, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-europeans-have-different-attitudes-than-americans-about-the-sanctity-of-property/455271/86 "2008-07-06T20:48:29Z")
I didn’t really want to turn this into a gun debate, my posts have been meant to have more than just a little self-depreciating sarcasm in them (although it’s not unusual that I’m the only one who sees them that way), but based on what I’ve seen with CCW becoming more widespread, and taking into account the legendary politeness of the British, I think you could flood the isles with Glocks and their murder rate wouldn’t skyrocket … compared to the US, anyway. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2008, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-europeans-have-different-attitudes-than-americans-about-the-sanctity-of-property/455271/87 "2008-07-06T21:43:13Z")
[QUOTE=Toxylon] At least here in Finland the limit’s of one’s personal property don’t go far and even then are vague. “Everyman’s rights” allow anybody to walk anywhere (on private and public land, excl. industrial and army grounds), no matter whose property you tread upon. The rights include overnight camping, &, hook-and-line fishing, picking berries and mushrooms, and there’s nothing a landowner can do to prevent people from doing just that. Only the immediate yard around one’s house is off limits. [/quote] eh. That seems pretty grey to me. What is ‘immediate area’? I live on two acres. Most of which would be hard to build on. Though a squatter could pitch a tent? So someone could camp on my property in Finland, and I couldn’t do anything about it? > [@Toxylon](#): > > Any kind of deadly force upon “intruders” would be met with prompt homicide charges. Even if someone broke to your house and took off with your personal valuables, you would not have the right to bodily harm the intruder. Are you allowed to use harsh words? ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2008, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-europeans-have-different-attitudes-than-americans-about-the-sanctity-of-property/455271/88 "2008-07-06T21:43:31Z")
If we’re all so polite, why would any of us have to own weapons 😉 ---
**Author:** ![WormTheRed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/bbe5ce/32.png) [@WormTheRed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WormTheRed)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2008, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-europeans-have-different-attitudes-than-americans-about-the-sanctity-of-property/455271/89 "2008-07-06T22:08:47Z")
[QUOTE=enipla] So someone could camp on my property in Finland, and I couldn’t do anything about it? Are you allowed to use harsh words? [/QUOTE] For one night, sure (I’m assuming the law in Finland is the same as in Iceland and Sweden here). You get to camp for one night, pretty much wherever you want outside of the cities. And people really don’t mind. Even though I’ve been woken up by a curious cow once or twice 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Svejk\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea666f/32.png) [@Svejk\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Svejk_1)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2008, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-europeans-have-different-attitudes-than-americans-about-the-sanctity-of-property/455271/90 "2008-07-06T22:30:52Z")
[QUOTE=katpohl] ``` I could be mistaken but I feel a bit of :rolleyes: when I read this post by ``` **Švejk** “Wow. There’s not a single person in the Netherlands who could say the same.” when they replied to one of my posts. [/QUOTE] In your post you mentioned the following three things: The closest neighbor lives a mile away The next town is 15 miles away The closest sherrif’s department is 65 miles away. This really, genuinely wowed me, and if that makes you feel :rolleyes: than so be it. But I stand by my assessment that no one in The Netherlands could say that. I mean, 65 miles, dude, if I travel that far, chances are I end up in another country. And I don’t even live close to the border. As to densely populated: the Netherlands is less than twice the size of New Jersey, and over 16 million people live here, which makes it nearly as densely populated as New Jersey - the most densely populated state in the states. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2008, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-europeans-have-different-attitudes-than-americans-about-the-sanctity-of-property/455271/91 "2008-07-06T22:32:23Z")
Here in the US, camping on people’s land without permission would definitely be Trespassing. Picking berries and mushrooms could also be considered Theft. Especially up here where the mushrooms you’d be talking about would be Morels. The idea of legalizing the practice of allowing complete strangers to set up a tent in your front yard or pasture, walk through your fields, pick your berries and mushrooms and hang out overnight would appear **completely insane** to the average American. We have Parks ([State](http://www.dnr.state.mn.us/state_parks/index.html) and [National](http://www.nps.gov/)) for that kind of thing. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2008, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-europeans-have-different-attitudes-than-americans-about-the-sanctity-of-property/455271/92 "2008-07-06T22:41:37Z")
[QUOTE=astro] Wait a minute, I can understand not being able to shoot them, but you are not allowed to physically confront them either? Taking it to a burglar with a cricket bat in your bedroom is not an option? What? You’re joking or I’m misunderstanding. [/QUOTE] If you have reason to fear for your safety, and an intruder in a bedroom certainly gives you such reason, then of course you can take action in self-defence. It may well be that the police will investigate the circumstances, but in the vast majority of cases the actions are considered justified. Violence used solely to safeguard property is a different matter. ---
**Author:** ![Rick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9f8e36/32.png) [@Rick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2008, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-europeans-have-different-attitudes-than-americans-about-the-sanctity-of-property/455271/93 "2008-07-06T22:42:59Z")
When I first traveled to Europe, I expected to see lots of people riding bicycles. After all Europe is the home of the world’s great bicycle races. I did see lots of people on bikes, but all of them looked like garage sale rejects. They all looked worn and worn out. I did not see a single nice bike like what I see everyday here in LA. I asked about it and the response was, “If we rode nice bikes they would get stolen.” :eek: While I don’t leave my Trek or my Cannondale parked out in the alley, I feel that I can ride it, and if I get thirsty go inside a coffee shop for a cup with an excellent chance it will still be there when I come out. ---
**Author:** ![katpohl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b782af/32.png) [@katpohl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/katpohl)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2008, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-europeans-have-different-attitudes-than-americans-about-the-sanctity-of-property/455271/94 "2008-07-06T23:33:49Z")
[QUOTE=Švejk] In your post you mentioned the following three things: The closest neighbor lives a mile away The next town is 15 miles away The closest sherrif’s department is 65 miles away. This really, genuinely wowed me, and if that makes you feel :rolleyes: than so be it. But I stand by my assessment that no one in The Netherlands could say that. I mean, 65 miles, dude, if I travel that far, chances are I end up in another country. And I don’t even live close to the border. As to densely populated: the Netherlands is less than twice the size of New Jersey, and over 16 million people live here, which makes it nearly as densely populated as New Jersey - the most densely populated state in the states. [/QUOTE] In a later post someone posted the population numbers and size of the country , you were not being :rolleyes: . My apologies. ---
**Author:** ![Gukumatz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/74df32/32.png) [@Gukumatz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gukumatz)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2008, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-europeans-have-different-attitudes-than-americans-about-the-sanctity-of-property/455271/95 "2008-07-07T00:46:03Z")
It’s been a few years since I had my Basic Introduction to Norwegian Law in high-school journalism, and my education took off in another direction after that. But the way it was presented to me is that the use of deadly force by a private citizen is completely illegal and _always_ subject to lawful punishment. The “Necessary Self Defence” angle is a mitigation of _punishment_, not an exonerating circumstance. While the Courts may judge your claim of self-defence entirely valid, there is always supposed to be a legal consequence or punishment. (For instance, your firearms licence may be revisited) That is the literal law, as I was told. However, precedence says that the Courts rarely exert punishment in cases where the claim of necessary self defence is proven valid and beyond doubt. ---
**Author:** ![Gukumatz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/74df32/32.png) [@Gukumatz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gukumatz)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2008, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-europeans-have-different-attitudes-than-americans-about-the-sanctity-of-property/455271/96 "2008-07-07T00:59:44Z")
[QUOTE=Gukumatz] It’s been a few years since I had my Basic Introduction to Norwegian Law in high-school journalism, and my education took off in another direction after that. But the way it was presented to me is that the use of deadly force by a private citizen is completely illegal and _always_ subject to lawful punishment. The “Necessary Self Defence” angle is a mitigation of _punishment_, not an exonerating circumstance. While the Courts may judge your claim of self-defence entirely valid, there is always supposed to be a legal consequence or punishment. (For instance, your firearms licence may be revisited) That is the literal law, as I was told. However, precedence says that the Courts rarely exert punishment in cases where the claim of necessary self defence is proven valid and beyond doubt. [/QUOTE] ETA: I’m talking about _deliberate_ use of deadly force. There are other laws for “Action X with death as a consequence.” As for my perspective on the stronger (and “easier”?) case for self defence with intent to kill, in the US, I don’t believe having a lower treshhold for lethal violence is a good thing. At least not in theory; in practice it may well be. It would be interesting to see a side-by-side comparison of fatalities in the burglar/victim in the US and Norway. If a lot fewer victims died in the US, I can certainly see it as defensible - at least morally. ---
**Author:** ![DangleYourModifier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@DangleYourModifier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DangleYourModifier)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2008, 9:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-europeans-have-different-attitudes-than-americans-about-the-sanctity-of-property/455271/97 "2008-07-07T09:05:16Z")
I know the discussion is about America and Europe but I thought [this](http://www.mg.co.za/article/2004-05-24-rugby-player-shoots-and-kills-daughter-by-mistake) article, although old, would be interesting to some people here. We’ve had quite a few similar cases here but this was the most publicised (and one of the most tragic). My opinion is that if you have a gun you should be trained to use it and be prepared to use it properly. Otherwise you shouldn’t have a gun. That being said here in SA the chances of an intruder or hijacker having a gun is nearly 100% and I would certainly be prepared to use my gun if I needed to. I have caught intruders in my yard and I shot 2 warning shots and they ran away. I would however have been quite prepared to shoot them if they didn’t run. ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2008, 9:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-europeans-have-different-attitudes-than-americans-about-the-sanctity-of-property/455271/98 "2008-07-07T09:45:44Z")
[QUOTE=Rick] While I don’t leave my Trek or my Cannondale parked out in the alley, I feel that I can ride it, and if I get thirsty go inside a coffee shop for a cup with an excellent chance it will still be there when I come out. [/QUOTE] Outside the big cities, it’s like that in the UK. I’ve left my car unlocked overnight regularly in the centre of Edinburgh (no central locking, easy to forget), and nobody’s ever touched it. ---
**Author:** ![JoseB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/joseb/32/1530_2.png) [@JoseB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoseB)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2008, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-europeans-have-different-attitudes-than-americans-about-the-sanctity-of-property/455271/99 "2008-07-07T22:24:33Z")
I leave my car parked in the street at night, and so far nothing has happened (knock on wood!). Just my 2 eurocent! ---
**Author:** ![WormTheRed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/bbe5ce/32.png) [@WormTheRed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WormTheRed)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2008, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-europeans-have-different-attitudes-than-americans-about-the-sanctity-of-property/455271/100 "2008-07-07T22:32:22Z")
The only thing that’s ever happen to my car (parked overnight outside downtown) is parking-tickets… _damn those lousy parking attendants_ [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-europeans-have-different-attitudes-than-americans-about-the-sanctity-of-property/455271.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-europeans-have-different-attitudes-than-americans-about-the-sanctity-of-property/455271.md?page=6)