# Do Europeans think Israeli moral leverage re the Holocaust is about played out? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 29, 2003, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-europeans-think-israeli-moral-leverage-re-the-holocaust-is-about-played-out/185195 "2003-06-29T18:45:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2003, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-europeans-think-israeli-moral-leverage-re-the-holocaust-is-about-played-out/185195/41 "2003-06-30T13:31:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by JonBodner \* > \*\* What I’m saying is that when Israel is criticized for acts that others engage in, what is the reason? > \*\* 1. Israel is a high profile case. You hear about it all the time in the news. When 12 Israelis or Palestians are killed, it’s all over the medias. When 12 000 people from some-shitty-country-I-can’t-even-remember-the-name-of are killed it’s barely mentionned. Were the Israelis of non-western culture and background, you’d essentially never hear about them. The issue would be discussed as often as, say, the Tamils issue. Nobody would care, nobody would draft “peace-plans”, and of course nobody would boycott. 2. Israel is held to higher standarts as a western democracy. You can’t have it both ways, claiming at the same time that you’re a modern democracy and comparing your actions with the actions of third-world dictatorship. 3)Because it’s an issue people disagree about. There’s not much in the way of arguments concerning Burma, because you’ll have a hard finding someone who will be supportive of its government. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2003, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-europeans-think-israeli-moral-leverage-re-the-holocaust-is-about-played-out/185195/42 "2003-06-30T13:33:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by JonBodner \* > \*\*You know, I felt the same way when the Chinese ran tanks over students and threw people in jail for practicing meditation. I figured they just deserved it. > \*\* Had you paid attention the post I was responding to, you’d probably have guessed I was sarcastic. ---
**Author:** ![Alien](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/57b2e6/32.png) [@Alien](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alien)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2003, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-europeans-think-israeli-moral-leverage-re-the-holocaust-is-about-played-out/185195/43 "2003-06-30T13:44:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by elfje \* > \*\*PM of ireland refused to meet with Ariel Sharon? > do you have a cite for that, please? \*\* > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by JonBodner \* > \*\*My mistake; it was the Irish foreign minister, not the PM: > > [http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/A/JPArticle/ShowFull%26cid=1056421660353](http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/A/JPArticle/ShowFull%26cid=1056421660353) > \*\* Actually, this article **JonBodner** is referring to is on the webpage **december** linked to too. The page contains a copy of the article. As an intro to the article, an editor of LGF wrote: “Irish Foreign Minister Brian Cowen was told that if he met with the bloodstained murderer Yasser Arafat, he would not be allowed to meet with Israeli officials. He chose to meet with the terrorist.” Could you tell us **JonBodner** , did you originally get that article from [jpost.com](http://jpost.com) or LGF? I’m only asking because it seems quotes in this thread, while also appering elsewhere as on [jpost.com](http://jpost.com), the shared source is decembers link. ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2003, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-europeans-think-israeli-moral-leverage-re-the-holocaust-is-about-played-out/185195/44 "2003-06-30T13:50:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by JonBodner \* > \*\*My mistake; it was the Irish foreign minister, not the PM: > > [http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/A/JPArticle/ShowFull%26cid=1056421660353](http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/A/JPArticle/ShowFull%26cid=1056421660353) > > Registration is required, so I’ll post the first paragraph: \*\* What you neglect to mention is that Sharon would refuse to meet with Brian Cowen if he met with Arafat. So Sharon’s imposed rules on who dignataries are allowed to meet are responsible for the fiasco. And it gets spun around to make it look like Cowen refused to meet with them? What a poor attempt at spin. Are you december in disguise? ---
**Author:** ![MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bb73d2/32.png) [@MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MC_Master_of_Ceremonies)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2003, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-europeans-think-israeli-moral-leverage-re-the-holocaust-is-about-played-out/185195/45 "2003-06-30T13:55:34Z")
I’m saying I agree with the academic boycott (I have grave reservations about it), but to call it antisemtic is just ignorant. The boycott takes it’s precednt from the academic boycott of South Africa. Steve Rose the man behind the boycott like many of it’s leading proponents is Jewish himself (the son of an anti-facist campaigner to boot). ---
**Author:** ![JonBodner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f0a364/32.png) [@JonBodner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JonBodner)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2003, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-europeans-think-israeli-moral-leverage-re-the-holocaust-is-about-played-out/185195/46 "2003-06-30T14:01:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by clairobscur \* > And how would you know? I didn’t make any comment about history, just stated that I thought the Jewish state should never have been created at the first place. Well, I guess you aren’t ignorant about history; you just don’t care if Jews die. > [@](#): > > What you said explain _why_ the Jews were motivated to create such a state, but it doesn’t mean that they had any legitimate right to do so. From my point of view, that was plain colonialism, whether or not the Jews had good reasons to think it was in their best interest is irrelevant. Because survival isn’t a legitimate right when you’re a Jew. > [@](#): > > In…1948??? Interesting. Could it be that the Jews being expelled or fleeing Arab countries was the consequence of the creation of the state of Israel? Hmmm? You seem to imply by mentionning this in this part of your post that it could be a _reason_ for the its creation, when of course it isn’t. No, it shows that once again, Jews will need a place to flee to, when the age-old hatreds rise again. Every other ethinic group has a homeland and is considered to have the right to a homeland. Jews aren’t. Why the difference? Couldn’t be anti-semitism, nope, not at all. > [@](#): > > Yep. But in most other countries, there isn’t a dispute/war fought over the legitimate owning of the land. Bringing in more “friends” when you’re already accused of being stealing the territory of another people and forbidding _their_ friends from coming back is a very different situation. Yeah, and that’s why you should start boycotting the US. After all it stole land from the Indians, and then invited in more people to settle it! Of course, the same is true for Egypt. The Copts are the native Egyptians, who are now brutally repressed. The Arabs are foreign conquerors. I take it that you have just as much indignation for the Egyptians as you do for Israelis. > [@](#): > > Beside, the religious basis used for immigration is for me an issue in itself, but secondary to my point above. Why exactly are religious restrictions an issue? What makes them worse than education-level restrictions or country of origin restrictions or the Francophone restrictions that Quebec and Canada use? > [@](#): > > Ancestral home? As in 2000 years ago? Totally irrelevant for me. The fact that 80 generations ago, possibly some of your ancestors lived on some piece of land don’t you give you any right to this piece of land. And certainly _way_ more right than someone who can prove that his father was living on the said place of land 50 years ago. Arafat was born in Cairo. Sharon was born in Palestine. Who has the right to stay? I’m waiting for your answer, but I think you’re just going to skip this one. > [@](#): > > Possibly because there was already people living in this “ancestral land”??? Hmmm?? And that the european colonial power in charge had no legitimacy in handing out this land to them against the will of the people actually living there? The number of people living in Palestine when Jews started returning from Europe was tiny, less than 10% of the current population. And population figures for Jerusalem at this time show that it was overwhelmingly Jewish. It’s not like these foreign invader Jews were pushing the natives out. Jews had as much right to go to Palestine as Europeans had a right to go to the New World and AU/NZ. Do you consider those countries illigitimate, too? > [@](#): > > The Jews might have been victimized by the romans and expelled from their land very, very, long time ago, but that is history (and remote history at that), and irrelevant when considering the current situation (and by the way may I remind you, since we’re apparently allowed to come back in time, that the Jewish ancestors were themselves invaders who took over the territory from their original owners, as mentionned in…I can’t remember exactly, but must be some old book Jewish people tend to consider with high regard. And, unlike virtually every other people, Jews are honest about where they got their land from. There’s no myth that God fashioned Jews from the soil of Israel (Abraham came from what is now Iraq). Jews consider the land of Israel to have been God-given. It’s more of a reason than any other nation gives for its right to exist. Do you have a problem with the expulsion of the Jews from Mecca, when Mohammed claimed it as the seat of Islam? Or is that history too ancient for it to count? > [@](#): > > But perhaps I should accept your reasonning. I wrote in my post above that most Israelis had now a legitimate claim because they were born and have lived all their live in Israel, but maybe you’re right. Perhaps this doesn’t give them any right to live there at all, since the grand-parents of other people were there before them, and perhaps they should just leave and let the proven descendants of Palestinians take over (of course, they will in turn leave as soon as someone will be able to prove his ancestors had an even older claim. Eventually, any Jew who will be able to document, showing birth certificates from the last 2000 years, that his ancestors were living in Israel will be allowed to come back). So, what country do you live in? How far back can we trace the property rights to the piece of land you call your home? > [@](#): > > Let’s be serious…a 2000 years old claim is totally meaningless. Please tell me the exact number of years that makes a claim valid. Right now, it’s somewhere between 53 years and 2000 years. And then tell me if you will apply this standard to the Palestinians. > [@](#): > > Once again, the fact that Jews might had good reasons to _want_ to have their own country didn’t give them the _right_ to carve out this country wherever they felt like at the detriment of of the people already living there. Please list the natural-born rights that you think that people have, and tell me where they come from. Jews had as much right to create the State of Israel as Australia has a right to exist, as New Zealand has a right to exist, as America has a right to exist, as Canada has a right to exist. I take it that you question these other countries, too? And if not, why not? > [@](#): > > And it most certainly doesn’t give them any justification or any moral leverage when they are acccused of oppressing the palestinians. No, no it doesn’t. But whether or not Israel is oppressing the Palestinians is not the issue. Every Arab country oppresses the Palestinians. The legitimacy of the State of Israel is the issue. Was Israel legitimate before 1967, when the West Bank and Gaza were Jordanian and Egyptian? Look, you clearly have a problem with Israel that you don’t have with other countries in similar situations. You need to ask yourself why you feel this way. Being honest about your feelings will make this all quite a bit easier. ---
**Author:** ![JonBodner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f0a364/32.png) [@JonBodner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JonBodner)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2003, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-europeans-think-israeli-moral-leverage-re-the-holocaust-is-about-played-out/185195/47 "2003-06-30T14:04:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by clairobscur \* > \*\*Had you paid attention the post I was responding to, you’d probably have guessed I was sarcastic. \*\* Oh, horseflop. You were implying that Israelis **deserve** to be attacked by the Palestinians. So, I’m asking if this is true of any terroristic attack, or only those against Israelis? ---
**Author:** ![MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bb73d2/32.png) [@MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MC_Master_of_Ceremonies)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2003, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-europeans-think-israeli-moral-leverage-re-the-holocaust-is-about-played-out/185195/48 "2003-06-30T14:05:05Z")
\*I’m not saying I agree with the… ---
**Author:** ![JonBodner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f0a364/32.png) [@JonBodner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JonBodner)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2003, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-europeans-think-israeli-moral-leverage-re-the-holocaust-is-about-played-out/185195/49 "2003-06-30T14:07:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by MC Master of Ceremonies \* > \*\*I’m saying I agree with the academic boycott (I have grave reservations about it), but to call it antisemtic is just ignorant. The boycott takes it’s precednt from the academic boycott of South Africa. Steve Rose the man behind the boycott like many of it’s leading proponents is Jewish himself (the son of an anti-facist campaigner to boot). \*\* And an academic boycott of South Africa (I didn’t realize there was one) was repugnant, too. It reminds me of the people who criticized Paul Simon for recording Graceland with Black South Africans, because it was breaking an economic boycott. Never mind that Graceland was featuring Black artists and giving them money. ---
**Author:** ![MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bb73d2/32.png) [@MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MC_Master_of_Ceremonies)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2003, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-europeans-think-israeli-moral-leverage-re-the-holocaust-is-about-played-out/185195/50 "2003-06-30T14:12:12Z")
Well again as I said I don’t agree with it (I actually know someone in a very simlair situation: Israeli, served in IDF, currently studying for a PhD at Cambridge, who hasn’t had any problems with the boycott), particlularly as the people who it hits hardest tend to be members of the Israeli peace camp. ---
**Author:** ![JonBodner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f0a364/32.png) [@JonBodner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JonBodner)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2003, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-europeans-think-israeli-moral-leverage-re-the-holocaust-is-about-played-out/185195/51 "2003-06-30T14:16:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by TwistofFate \* > \*\*What you neglect to mention is that Sharon would refuse to meet with Brian Cowen if he met with Arafat. > > So Sharon’s imposed rules on who dignataries are allowed to meet are responsible for the fiasco. > > And it gets spun around to make it look like Cowen refused to meet with them? > > What a poor attempt at spin. > > Are you december in disguise? \*\* I don’t know December at all. And Brian Cowen chose to meet with a terrorist (who is, according to recent reports, getting money from Libya to continue to fund terror attacks against Israelis) instead of the democratically elected leader of a “western democracy.” Do you think that Bush would meet with someone who decided to have a chat with bin Laden? Would Vicente Fox meet with someone who insisted on meeting with the head of the Zapatistas? I could keep on citing terror groups and their associated countries, but I hope you get the hint. Arafat is still a terrorist, not a statesman. Calling him democratically elected would be like calling Mubarak or Assad democratically elected. The representative of the Irish government chose a side, and it’s a side that would not have been chosen with any other country. ---
**Author:** ![JonBodner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f0a364/32.png) [@JonBodner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JonBodner)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2003, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-europeans-think-israeli-moral-leverage-re-the-holocaust-is-about-played-out/185195/52 "2003-06-30T14:20:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by MC Master of Ceremonies \* > \*\*Well again as I said I don’t agree with it (I actually know someone in a very simlair situation: Israeli, served in IDF, currently studying for a PhD at Cambridge, who hasn’t had any problems with the boycott), particlularly as the people who it hits hardest tend to be members of the Israeli peace camp. \*\* Apologies; I posted before your correction appeared. ---
**Author:** ![JonBodner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f0a364/32.png) [@JonBodner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JonBodner)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2003, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-europeans-think-israeli-moral-leverage-re-the-holocaust-is-about-played-out/185195/53 "2003-06-30T14:23:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Alien \* > Could you tell us **JonBodner** , did you originally get that article from [jpost.com](http://jpost.com) or LGF? I’m only asking because it seems quotes in this thread, while also appering elsewhere as on [jpost.com](http://jpost.com), the shared source is decembers link. \*\* No, I got it from the Jerusalem Post. I have a membership there. Whether or not you think it’s a bastion of bigotry, LGF is one of the most popular blogs, and it is updated quite frequently with news on Israel. It’s not too surprising that you’ll see something from the Jerusalem Post referenced on LGF. ---
**Author:** ![JonBodner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f0a364/32.png) [@JonBodner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JonBodner)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2003, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-europeans-think-israeli-moral-leverage-re-the-holocaust-is-about-played-out/185195/54 "2003-06-30T14:30:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by clairobscur \* > \*\*1) Israel is a high profile case. You hear about it all the time in the news. When 12 Israelis or Palestians are killed, it’s all over the medias. When 12 000 people from some-shitty-country-I-can’t-even-remember-the-name-of are killed it’s barely mentionned. Were the Israelis of non-western culture and background, you’d essentially never hear about them. The issue would be discussed as often as, say, the Tamils issue. Nobody would care, nobody would draft “peace-plans”, and of course nobody would boycott. > 2) Israel is held to higher standarts as a western democracy. You can’t have it both ways, claiming at the same time that you’re a modern democracy and comparing your actions with the actions of third-world dictatorship. > 3)Because it’s an issue people disagree about. There’s not much in the way of arguments concerning Burma, because you’ll have a hard finding someone who will be supportive of its government. \*\* So, what you’re saying is that Israel is just so highly respected and admired by the world, the world feels the need to hold it to a higher standard than the poor, stupid Arabs. And due to that high respect, the French Ambassador to London couldn’t help but refer to Israel as a “shitty little country” [http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/1721172.stm](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/1721172.stm) Are you serious? From what I can tell, you share these beliefs. That makes you a rather intolorable bigot. Are you ashamed that you think so little of Arabs? ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2003, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-europeans-think-israeli-moral-leverage-re-the-holocaust-is-about-played-out/185195/55 "2003-06-30T14:33:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by JonBodner \* > \*\*I don’t know December at all. > > And Brian Cowen chose to meet with a terrorist (who is, according to recent reports, getting money from Libya to continue to fund terror attacks against Israelis) instead of the democratically elected leader of a “western democracy.” Do you think that Bush would meet with someone who decided to have a chat with bin Laden? Would Vicente Fox meet with someone who insisted on meeting with the head of the Zapatistas? > > I could keep on citing terror groups and their associated countries, but I hope you get the hint. Arafat is still a terrorist, not a statesman. Calling him democratically elected would be like calling Mubarak or Assad democratically elected. The representative of the Irish government chose a side, and it’s a side that would not have been chosen with any other country. \*\* Cowen offered to meet with both sides, it was the Israeli’s who refuesed to meet with Cowen because he planned on meeting with Arafat aswell. Using your logic, foreign dignataries could refuse to meet with Sharon because of his previous Cosy Cartel with the Phalangists, or is assisting terrorism ok as long as its your enemies getting slaughtered? ---
**Author:** ![JonBodner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f0a364/32.png) [@JonBodner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JonBodner)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2003, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-europeans-think-israeli-moral-leverage-re-the-holocaust-is-about-played-out/185195/56 "2003-06-30T14:38:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by YourOldBuddy \* > \*\*At the same time as the US sat on its hands, Europeans where fighting and risking their lives to keep their Jews alive. Even Mussolini, Hitlers staunchest allie refused to give his Jews up. Even then Europeans and 99% of Germans didnt know about deathcamps. Roosevelt did. Yes, and it’s shameful what the US did. The US refused to take in Jewish refugees. It sent back a boat full of them, and they all later perished in the camps. Anti-semitism in the US has died down quite a bit from its peak, but it’s not perfect. For example, in Northern California (home of San Francisco and Berkeley), attacks on Jews doubled last year. As for Germans not knowing, it’s absurd. There are documents that show companies requesting Jewish slaves for medical experiments and slave labor. The Poles certainly knew what was going on, as the death camps were all in Poland, not Germany. The smoke from the cremetoria carried quite a distance. If they were ignorant, they were willfully ignorant. > [@](#): > > I would take you seriously if you actually wrote from a bastion of racial harmony. A week since the last large scale black riot? 12% of blacks age 20-30 in jail. Your one to talk trash about Europes race relations. Because Black people in Michigan burned down a town with a majority Black population and a Black mayor, I can’t point out that Europeans have a 1,000 year history of Jew hatred? I’m confused. Did I miss a step in your logic? > [@](#): > > You spew hypocrisy as well as bigotry and Euro hate. At the same time you accuse others of anti semitism and link to a Muslim Hate site. Which Muslim hate site did I link to? The BBC? The Jerusalem Post? As I suspected, you descended into vitrol and hate rather than debate. I’m through replying to you. ---
**Author:** ![JonBodner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f0a364/32.png) [@JonBodner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JonBodner)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2003, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-europeans-think-israeli-moral-leverage-re-the-holocaust-is-about-played-out/185195/57 "2003-06-30T14:51:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by TwistofFate \* > \*\*Cowen offered to meet with both sides, it was the Israeli’s who refuesed to meet with Cowen because he planned on meeting with Arafat aswell. > > Using your logic, foreign dignataries could refuse to meet with Sharon because of his previous Cosy Cartel with the Phalangists, or is assisting terrorism ok as long as its your enemies getting slaughtered? \*\* Again, Sharon’s refusal made perfect sense, as any head of state would make the exact same choice. And no, terrorism is never OK. Sharon never said, “OK Lebanese Christians, go slaughters those Muslims for me!” He was told that they were going to go into the refugee camps to get PLO terrorists and instead they killed women and children, too. For this serious error in judgement, there were massive demonstrations in Israel (something like 10% of the country turned out) and he was sacked. It wouldn’t be the first time that a group allied with a government committed an atrocity, and Sharon shouldn’t have been so trusting. But there is no valid comparison between Sharon and Arafat. If Arafat had foresworn terrorism and was working for peace, that would be one thing, and Sharon would be seriously wrong in insisting that it was either him or Arafat. But Sharon isn’t wrong. Arafat is still a terrorist. He encourages other people (especially children) to be terrorists, and he provides money to help people commit terrorist acts. Compare Sharon’s attitude towards Arafat with his attitude towards Abu Mazen. Mazen has quite a lot of blood on his hands, and holds some quite disgusting views on the Holocaust. But he is, as far as anyone can tell, an honest broker for peace. The Irish FM’s meeting with Arafat not only undermined Sharon, it also undermined Abu Mazen. Why did they do that? Don’ t the Irish want peace in the Middle East? Or is the need to snub Israel more important than strengthening the Palestinians who are working for peace? ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2003, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-europeans-think-israeli-moral-leverage-re-the-holocaust-is-about-played-out/185195/58 "2003-06-30T15:04:02Z")
You’re simply demonising your enemy to justify your allies actions. Sharon knew exactly what the Phalangists were capable of, it’s not like it was a break from their normal charitable work or anything. The Irish certainly want peace in the Middle East, and we have learned the hard way that the only way to work towards peace is to meet with all sides. ---
**Author:** ![JonBodner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f0a364/32.png) [@JonBodner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JonBodner)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2003, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-europeans-think-israeli-moral-leverage-re-the-holocaust-is-about-played-out/185195/59 "2003-06-30T15:13:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by TwistofFate \* > You’re simply demonising your enemy to justify your allies actions. Sharon knew exactly what the Phalangists were capable of, it’s not like it was a break from their normal charitable work or anything. Please point out where I demonized. I never said the Phalangists were the Salvation Army. I said that Sharon screwed up. I don’t think Sharon encouraged the Phalangists to commit the atrocity, and I don’t think there is any evidence supporting the belief that Sharon encouraged them. Arafat does indeed support terrorism to this day. There’s incontrovertable evidence of this. It’s not demonization when it’s true. > [@](#): > > The Irish certainly want peace in the Middle East, and we have learned the hard way that the only way to work towards peace is to meet with all sides. Then why not meet with Abu Mazen alone? It would have been the diplomatic thing to do, and it would have helped isolate a terrorist from popular support. Seems to me that reducing support for a terrorist would be a pro-peace move. ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2003, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-europeans-think-israeli-moral-leverage-re-the-holocaust-is-about-played-out/185195/60 "2003-06-30T15:17:48Z")
Because it is not up to Israel to pick and choose which foreign dignataries Irish representatives can meet with. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-europeans-think-israeli-moral-leverage-re-the-holocaust-is-about-played-out/185195.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-europeans-think-israeli-moral-leverage-re-the-holocaust-is-about-played-out/185195.md?page=4)