# Do Gun control laws work? Who can prove this wiki informaiton false? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 13, 2018, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-gun-control-laws-work-who-can-prove-this-wiki-informaiton-false/810498 "2018-03-13T17:38:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2018, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-gun-control-laws-work-who-can-prove-this-wiki-informaiton-false/810498/61 "2018-03-16T19:53:55Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Sure, it is a reason. But it is also a excuse. Gun control laws dont work in America. Period. Of course part of that reason is that local laws can be bypassed- but doing so is illegal, note. Illegal to the criminal, sure. But perfectly legal to the person who sells or gives his gun to a criminal. The infamous “gun show loophole.” > [@](#): > > However, since they can be bypassed and the chance of a 100% nationwide gun bad is less than zero, why bother- since at the local level they simply dont work? It’s not that the local laws dont stop all gun crime (we cant expect that) - _it’s that they never show ANY significant reduction in violent crime._ Because if you have laws against having certain types of guns in certain areas, you can enforce those laws. If it is perfectly fine to open carry an AR-15 down the street, there’s not a damn thing you can do about it until they start shooting people. If it is illegal to have certain guns in your possession, then you don’t have to find out whether they are allowed to have those weapons before you take legal action against them. > [@](#): > > Laws against murder work since the significantly reduce the number of murders. How would you determine that? Do we have a US without a law against murder to compare it to? I would agree that laws against murder decrease the number of murders, but for the same reasons that I would say that a law against guns would decrease the number of guns. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2018, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-gun-control-laws-work-who-can-prove-this-wiki-informaiton-false/810498/62 "2018-03-16T20:05:56Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > How would you determine that? Do we have a US without a law against murder to compare it to? I would agree that laws against murder decrease the number of murders, but for the same reasons that I would say that a law against guns would decrease the number of guns. Now you’ve done it. Classic response to this - “See? You don’t care about reducing crime, you only want to reduce the number of guns!” ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2018, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-gun-control-laws-work-who-can-prove-this-wiki-informaiton-false/810498/63 "2018-03-16T20:36:58Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Gun control laws dont work in America. Period. Really? > [@](#): > > - After Connecticut passed a law requiring gun purchasers to first obtain a license, gun homicides fell by 40 percent and suicides fell by 15.4 percent. > > - When Missouri repealed a similar law, gun homicides increased by 23 percent and suicides increased by 16.1 percent. > > - Both firearm homicides and overall homicides are lower in states that check for restraining orders (13 percent fewer firearm homicides) and fugitive status (21 percent fewer) before selling guns, and firearm/overall suicides are lower in states that check for fugitive status (5 percent fewer), misdemeanors (5 percent fewer), and mental illness (4 percent fewer). > > - The national assault weapons ban did not decrease gun deaths in the US, though if it had existed longer it might have made certain shootings less lethal. The end of the assault weapon ban did meaningfully increase homicides in Mexico. > > - A Maryland law banning cheap, crummy handguns might have reduced gun homicides, but this effect was offset in part by customers rushing to purchase the guns before the ban took effect. > > SOURCE: [Gun controls like assault weapons bans and background checks aren’t enough - Vox](https://www.vox.com/2015/10/5/9454161/gun-violence-solution) ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2018, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-gun-control-laws-work-who-can-prove-this-wiki-informaiton-false/810498/64 "2018-03-16T20:42:43Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Now you’ve done it. Classic response to this - “See? You don’t care about reducing crime, you only want to reduce the number of guns!” Yeah but that’s ok since guns correspond directly to gun deaths. More guns = more gun deaths. Pretty straightforward really and should not surprise anyone. > [@](#): > > Rather, they found, in data that has since been repeatedly confirmed, that American crime is simply more lethal. A New Yorker is just as likely to be robbed as a Londoner, for instance, but the New Yorker is 54 times more likely to be killed in the process. > > They concluded that the discrepancy, like so many other anomalies of American violence, came down to guns. > > More gun ownership corresponds with more gun murders across virtually every axis: among developed countries, among American states, among American towns and cities and when controlling for crime rates. And gun control legislation tends to reduce gun murders, according to a recent analysis of 130 studies from 10 countries. > > This suggests that the guns themselves cause the violence. > > SOURCE: [https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/07/world/americas/mass-shootings-us-international.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/07/world/americas/mass-shootings-us-international.html) ---
**Author:** ![ChickenLegs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecc23a/32.png) [@ChickenLegs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ChickenLegs)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2018, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-gun-control-laws-work-who-can-prove-this-wiki-informaiton-false/810498/65 "2018-03-16T21:59:01Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > The problem is not that a criminal is going to break the law, and therefore get a gun illegally anyway, the problem is that it is not breaking the law to sell that gun to a criminal in the first place. What? Of course it is. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2018, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-gun-control-laws-work-who-can-prove-this-wiki-informaiton-false/810498/66 "2018-03-16T22:03:25Z")
> [@ChickenLegs](#): > > What? Of course it is. Please cite the federal law that requires the private seller of a gun to do a background check on the buyer. ---
**Author:** ![ChickenLegs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecc23a/32.png) [@ChickenLegs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ChickenLegs)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2018, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-gun-control-laws-work-who-can-prove-this-wiki-informaiton-false/810498/67 "2018-03-16T22:06:33Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Please cite the federal law that requires the private seller of a gun to do a background check on the buyer. Why? That’s not what you stated. Any transaction that involves transferring a firearm to a prohibited person is illegal. Your statement is simply false. In case your memory is that short: " …it is not breaking the law to sell that gun to a criminal in the first place." ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2018, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-gun-control-laws-work-who-can-prove-this-wiki-informaiton-false/810498/68 "2018-03-16T22:08:23Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Sure, it is a reason. But it is also a excuse. Gun control laws dont work in America. Period. Of course part of that reason is that local laws can be bypassed- but doing so is illegal, note. However, since they can be bypassed and the chance of a 100% nationwide gun bad is less than zero, why bother- since at the local level they simply dont work? It’s not that the local laws dont stop all gun crime (we cant expect that) - _it’s that they never show ANY significant reduction in violent crime._ > > Laws against murder work since the significantly reduce the number of murders. Really? Where is this place where murder is legal that we can use to compare? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2018, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-gun-control-laws-work-who-can-prove-this-wiki-informaiton-false/810498/69 "2018-03-16T22:11:29Z")
> [@ChickenLegs](#): > > Why? That’s not what you stated. > > Any transaction that involves transferring a firearm to a prohibited person is illegal. Your statement is simply false. In case your memory is that short: > > " …it is not breaking the law to sell that gun to a criminal in the first place." Actually what I said in the first place was " If some sort of responsibility was on the owner of the gun when he sold it to ensure that it was not going to a prohibited person, and hold them liable if it does, then that would cut down on the trafficking of guns. As is, since the person selling the gun is not liable in any way, unless you can prove that they knew that the buyer was prohibited from having a gun, that leaves a massive loophole for getting guns into the blackmarket." That you removed it, and asked a question about the rest of it out of context doesn’t mean that you have somehow changed the meaning of my words. My words are still right there for anyone to read. Your little game fools no one. If you sell a gun to someone who is a criminal, but you “didn’t know” that they were a criminal when you sold it to them, exactly what law have you broken? ---
**Author:** ![ChickenLegs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecc23a/32.png) [@ChickenLegs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ChickenLegs)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2018, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-gun-control-laws-work-who-can-prove-this-wiki-informaiton-false/810498/70 "2018-03-16T22:18:44Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Actually what I said in the first place was " If some sort of responsibility was on the owner of the gun when he sold it to ensure that it was not going to a prohibited person, and hold them liable if it does, then that would cut down on the trafficking of guns. As is, since the person selling the gun is not liable in any way, unless you can prove that they knew that the buyer was prohibited from having a gun, that leaves a massive loophole for getting guns into the blackmarket." > > That you removed it, and asked a question about the rest of it out of context doesn’t mean that you have somehow changed the meaning of my words. My words are still right there for anyone to read. Your little game fools no one. > > If you sell a gun to someone who is a criminal, but you “didn’t know” that they were a criminal when you sold it to them, exactly what law have you broken? This is a direct quote from you, as posted above: “The problem is not that a criminal is going to break the law, and therefore get a gun illegally anyway, the problem is that it is not breaking the law to sell that gun to a criminal in the first place.” Are you accusing me of falsifying that quote? ---
**Author:** ![ChickenLegs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecc23a/32.png) [@ChickenLegs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ChickenLegs)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2018, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-gun-control-laws-work-who-can-prove-this-wiki-informaiton-false/810498/71 "2018-03-16T22:26:45Z")
> [@ChickenLegs](#): > > This is a direct quote from you, as posted above: > > “The problem is not that a criminal is going to break the law, and therefore get a gun illegally anyway, the problem is that it is not breaking the law to sell that gun to a criminal in the first place.” > > Are you accusing me of falsifying that quote? My apologies. The statement of kb9friender (as it stands now), taken in full context, has a different meaning (with which I agree): “The problem is not that a criminal is going to break the law, and therefore get a gun illegally anyway, the problem is that it is not breaking the law to sell that gun to a criminal in the first place. If some sort of responsibility was on the owner of the gun when he sold it to ensure that it was not going to a prohibited person, and hold them liable if it does, then that would cut down on the trafficking of guns. As is, since the person selling the gun is not liable in any way, unless you can prove that they knew that the buyer was prohibited from having a gun, that leaves a massive loophole for getting guns into the blackmarket.” ---
**Author:** ![ChickenLegs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecc23a/32.png) [@ChickenLegs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ChickenLegs)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2018, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-gun-control-laws-work-who-can-prove-this-wiki-informaiton-false/810498/72 "2018-03-16T22:32:17Z")
“The problem is not that a criminal is going to break the law, and therefore get a gun illegally anyway, the problem is that it is not breaking the law to sell that gun to a criminal in the first place. If some sort of responsibility was on the owner of the gun when he sold it to ensure that it was not going to a prohibited person, and hold them liable if it does, then that would cut down on the trafficking of guns. As is, since the person selling the gun is not liable in any way, unless you can prove that they knew that the buyer was prohibited from having a gun, that leaves a massive loophole for getting guns into the blackmarket.” That being said: It is not uncommon, in my experience, that private sellers of guns will mandate a concealed carry license as a prerequisite for a private sale, to voluntarily insure that the buyer is not a prohibited person. I’ve also seen it suggested that some mechanism be created that would open the NICS system to private sales, to be accessed with consent of both the buyer and the seller. This seems like a good idea to me. The devil is in the details, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Wolf333](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolf333/32/3460_2.png) [@Wolf333](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wolf333)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2018, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-gun-control-laws-work-who-can-prove-this-wiki-informaiton-false/810498/73 "2018-03-16T23:47:28Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > No, since one point the gun people make is that criminals will turn to other forms of weapons. > \* > If “gun murders” go down by 1000, but “knife murders” increase by 1000, then the gun control laws have done nothing. True, I doubt if that kind of increase would occur, but still that’s the comparison that needs to be done.\* > > Next, including suicides is bogus. Suicide is a basic human right, imho, and needs to be taken off the table. > > Finally another point that gun people make is that gun \*prevent \*some violent crime. I am sure that is so, but I dont know how big the number is. Possibly not significant. > > But if you just compare "gun deaths’ then the gun people can point out that the murder rate didnt decrease at all. Italics mine I really wish this knife = gun as a murder weapon thing would just die. To put this in some perspective, the Las Vegas shooter fired \> 1,100 rounds. 58 people died and 851 were injured. This took 10 minutes. One of the deadliest knife attacks ever, a group of 10 knife wielding assailants attacked Kunmin railway station in China. 35 died, 4 of whom were bad guys, and \> 140 were wounded. 10 people with knives in an enclosed area killed slightly more than half as many as a single person with a gun from across the street and several floors up. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2018, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-gun-control-laws-work-who-can-prove-this-wiki-informaiton-false/810498/74 "2018-03-17T00:26:36Z")
> [@Wolf333](#): > > Italics mine > > I really wish this knife = gun as a murder weapon thing would just die. > > To put this in some perspective, the Las Vegas shooter fired \> 1,100 rounds. 58 people died and 851 were injured. This took 10 minutes. > > One of the deadliest knife attacks ever, a group of 10 knife wielding assailants attacked Kunmin railway station in China. 35 died, 4 of whom were bad guys, and \> 140 were wounded. > > 10 people with knives in an enclosed area killed slightly more than half as many as a single person with a gun from across the street and several floors up. In post #64 I quoted the following which puts paid to the notion that knives are as much a threat as guns: - "Rather, they found, in data that has since been repeatedly confirmed, that American crime is simply more lethal. A New Yorker is just as likely to be robbed as a Londoner, for instance, but the New Yorker is 54 times more likely to be killed in the process. They concluded that the discrepancy, like so many other anomalies of American violence, came down to guns."\* So guns are the problem. Not knives. I am pretty sure the Brits have easy access to knives. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2018, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-gun-control-laws-work-who-can-prove-this-wiki-informaiton-false/810498/75 "2018-03-17T02:57:39Z")
> [@Wolf333](#): > > Italics mine > > I really wish this knife = gun as a murder weapon thing would just die. > > To put this in some perspective, the Las Vegas shooter fired \> 1,100 rounds. 58 people died and 851 were injured. This took 10 minutes. > > One of the deadliest knife attacks ever, a group of 10 knife wielding assailants attacked Kunmin railway station in China. 35 died, 4 of whom were bad guys, and \> 140 were wounded. > > 10 people with knives in an enclosed area killed slightly more than half as many as a single person with a gun from across the street and several floors up. Sure. But that’s not all: > **[Opinion | Zero correlation between state homicide rate and state gun laws](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2015/10/06/zero-correlation-between-state-homicide-rate-and-state-gun-laws/?utm_term=.314d11acec7b)** > > Correlation isn't causation -- but here there isn't even any correlation. T\*o begin with, here’s why I focus on total homicide, rather than gun homicide or all gun deaths. First, few people care much about whether they are stabbed to death or shot to death. And even if gun restrictions do decrease gun homicides, that effect may well be offset (or more than offset) by an increase in other homicides: Some killers would kill with knives or other weapons instead of guns. To the extent that today some attempted killings are stopped by defenders who have guns, those attempts might succeed if the guns become harder enough for defenders to get. To the extent that today some potential killings (or attempted robberies, rapes, or burglaries that lead to killings) are deterred by attackers’ fear of running into a gun, it might be that fewer will be deterred if guns become harder enough for defenders to get.\* I am willing to concede that knives … and cars…and bombs… and whatever wont take the place of guns. But there’s the self defense angle and frankly I think that is pretty serious. Otherwise, why is it that gun control laws do not reduce violent crime? ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2018, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-gun-control-laws-work-who-can-prove-this-wiki-informaiton-false/810498/76 "2018-03-17T06:12:43Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > I am not a gun nut. I only own a old .22 rifle, given to me when I was in the Boy Scouts and my service pistol. But I am a small l libertarian, and since gun control laws simply do not reduce violent crime in America, i dont see the purpose of putting law abiding citizens in prison and taking their guns away to make some people with a irrational fear of guns _feel_ safer. For what it’s worth, I’m somewhere near a small l libertarian myself. I think gun control laws do (or at least can) reduce violent crime, but I’m against strict gun control. To me, the liberty issue is more important than the safety issue. I feel the same way about cigarettes and alcohol. It’s much more comfortable for me to argue against gun control from this position than to try to defend a position that states guns are actually safer than no-guns. ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2018, 6:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-gun-control-laws-work-who-can-prove-this-wiki-informaiton-false/810498/77 "2018-03-17T06:35:15Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > [https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2015/10/06/zero-correlation-between-state-homicide-rate-and-state-gun-laws/?utm\_term=.ccf71e9423db](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2015/10/06/zero-correlation-between-state-homicide-rate-and-state-gun-laws/?utm_term=.ccf71e9423db) > _The correlation between the homicide rate and Brady score in all 51 jurisdictions is +.032 (on a scale of -1 to +1), which means that states with more gun restrictions on average have very slightly higher homicide rates, though the tendency is so small as to be essentially zero._ Your source is an opinion piece from a politically conservative [strongly pro-gun columnist](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugene_Volokh#Politics), who by his own admission did not attempt anything close to an academically rigorous analysis. Here’s something [a little more thorough](https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/bc6f/104b5b658796ce6b7ca1e1afe8caeb55ff6b.pdf) regarding the correlation between state homicide rates and gun ownership. ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2018, 8:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-gun-control-laws-work-who-can-prove-this-wiki-informaiton-false/810498/78 "2018-03-17T08:04:47Z")
Gun control works. America hasn’t had any real gun control so there is no evidence for or against its effectiveness in America. There is plenty _plenty_ of evidence that gun control works worldwide. America is not a special snowflake. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2018, 9:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-gun-control-laws-work-who-can-prove-this-wiki-informaiton-false/810498/79 "2018-03-17T09:47:15Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Sure. But that’s not all: > > [https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2015/10/06/zero-correlation-between-state-homicide-rate-and-state-gun-laws/?utm\_term=.314d11acec7b](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2015/10/06/zero-correlation-between-state-homicide-rate-and-state-gun-laws/?utm_term=.314d11acec7b) > > T\*o begin with, here’s why I focus on total homicide, rather than gun homicide or all gun deaths. First, few people care much about whether they are stabbed to death or shot to death. And even if gun restrictions do decrease gun homicides, that effect may well be offset (or more than offset) by an increase in other homicides: > > Some killers would kill with knives or other weapons instead of guns. > To the extent that today some attempted killings are stopped by defenders who have guns, those attempts might succeed if the guns become harder enough for defenders to get. > To the extent that today some potential killings (or attempted robberies, rapes, or burglaries that lead to killings) are deterred by attackers’ fear of running into a gun, it might be that fewer will be deterred if guns become harder enough for defenders to get.\* > > I am willing to concede that knives … and cars…and bombs… and whatever wont take the place of guns. But there’s the self defense angle and frankly I think that is pretty serious. > > Otherwise, why is it that gun control laws do not reduce violent crime? It may be that gun control doesn’t reduce “violent crime,” but the lethality of it. I think it does reduce certain _categories_ of violent crime, such as terroristic mass shootings. As for firearms being used to deter criminals, the same can be said for bladed weapons. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2018, 9:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-gun-control-laws-work-who-can-prove-this-wiki-informaiton-false/810498/80 "2018-03-17T09:50:04Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > I am not a gun nut. I only own a old .22 rifle, given to me when I was in the Boy Scouts and my service pistol. But I am a small l libertarian, and since gun control laws simply do not reduce violent crime in America, i dont see the purpose of putting law abiding citizens in prison and taking their guns away to make some people with a irrational fear of guns _feel_ safer. I’m confused here; can you help me out? Who is putting law-abiding citizens in prison? Are you speaking of a hypothetical gun-owner who is required by an hypothetical future law to turn in his gun and refuses to do so? If he does disobey that law, would he still be a “law-abiding citizen”? Are libertarians exempt from obeying laws they disapprove of? Note that my question may be more about logic or English usage than politics, let alone guns. I really think your claim needs explanation. Promote yourself to an upper-case Libertarian if that helps. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-gun-control-laws-work-who-can-prove-this-wiki-informaiton-false/810498.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-gun-control-laws-work-who-can-prove-this-wiki-informaiton-false/810498.md?page=5)