# Do Gun control laws work? Who can prove this wiki informaiton false? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 13, 2018, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-gun-control-laws-work-who-can-prove-this-wiki-informaiton-false/810498 "2018-03-13T17:38:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2018, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-gun-control-laws-work-who-can-prove-this-wiki-informaiton-false/810498/121 "2018-03-19T16:22:40Z")
When conversations about gun control pop up, suddenly there is grave concern about deadly knives, swimming pools, cars and various other ways people have died other than firearms…but if there was such concern about these items causing so many deaths why is it we don’t see threads _about_ those concerns started by those that raise them? They only seem to be brought up as a diversion, and not as an actual topic to be talked about on their own by those that profess such concern in threads like this one. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2018, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-gun-control-laws-work-who-can-prove-this-wiki-informaiton-false/810498/122 "2018-03-19T16:29:22Z")
Easy. It’s pointless to advocate strenuous regulation for items that are already strenuously regulated about as much as possible. Doing so just contrasts with their refusal to do it for guns too. ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2018, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-gun-control-laws-work-who-can-prove-this-wiki-informaiton-false/810498/123 "2018-03-19T16:40:58Z")
Since we really don’t have any that aren’t full of holes to the point of being laughable, it’s really hard to answer that question. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2018, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-gun-control-laws-work-who-can-prove-this-wiki-informaiton-false/810498/124 "2018-03-19T17:18:19Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > It’s not up to the NRA whether something is illegal. It’s not up to the NRA whether something is constitutional.\* It’s not up to the NRA.\* > > From this response, I really don’t think you understand how\* laws \*work. Yes, but I was using them as a example of how even a very pro gun org states to it’s members that such is illegal. I have told you many times that selling to or buying a gun out of state is illegal unless done thru a FFL. You keep asking the question, I keep answering it. \*\*IT.IS. ILLEGAL. \*\* ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2018, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-gun-control-laws-work-who-can-prove-this-wiki-informaiton-false/810498/125 "2018-03-19T17:24:44Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > So, should we disbelieve that smoking is bad for you because the studies showing it is are “anti-smoking”? Should we disbelieve _literally everything the NRA publishes_ because they are “unabashedly pro-gun”? You “pro-gun” guys are just picking a team and then denouncing the other team. The _doctors_ at the CDC came up with studies that used the case control method, traditionally an epidemiology research tool to study murders. That method has yielded results that have come under fire by noted \*criminologists \*who have studies that show just the opposite. Criminologists are experts in \* Crime. \* Doctors are experts in \*Disease. \* So they were biased going in, and they used a method that noted experts in the field say can’t yield proper results. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2018, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-gun-control-laws-work-who-can-prove-this-wiki-informaiton-false/810498/126 "2018-03-19T17:27:46Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Yes, but I was using them as a example of how even a very pro gun org states to it’s members that such is illegal. I have told you many times that selling to or buying a gun out of state is illegal unless done thru a FFL. You keep asking the question, I keep answering it. > > \*\*IT.IS. ILLEGAL. \*\* Sure, as it was teaching evolution until Scopes came by. Point here is that we do know why it became illegal to the CDC, it does not follow that it was a good idea or a good law, specially when it is either against science or to the scientific study of an issue. It is clear to me that it was mostly because of ideology that we let the NRA to make the law. But then again, the law then can be changed and it should. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2018, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-gun-control-laws-work-who-can-prove-this-wiki-informaiton-false/810498/127 "2018-03-19T18:01:24Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Point here is that we do know why it became illegal to the CDC, it does not follow that it was a good idea or a good law, specially when it is either against science or to the scientific study of an issue. > > It is clear to me that it was mostly because of ideology that we let the NRA to make the law. But then again, the law then can be changed and it should. Look, those doctors did bad science to prove their point. That just is not acceptable. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2018, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-gun-control-laws-work-who-can-prove-this-wiki-informaiton-false/810498/128 "2018-03-19T18:07:08Z")
What was bad about it other than their conclusions? :dubious: You can’t just yell “Fake news!” without a cite, not here. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2018, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-gun-control-laws-work-who-can-prove-this-wiki-informaiton-false/810498/129 "2018-03-19T18:17:08Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > What was bad about it other than their conclusions? :dubious: > > You can’t just yell “Fake news!” without a cite, not here. The doctors at the CDC came up with studies that used the case control method, traditionally an epidemiology research tool to study murders. That method has yielded results that have come under fire by noted criminologists who have studies that show just the opposite. Criminologists are experts in Crime. Doctors are experts in Disease. So they were biased going in, and they used a method that noted experts in the field say can’t yield proper results. Many of their controls were questionable. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2018, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-gun-control-laws-work-who-can-prove-this-wiki-informaiton-false/810498/130 "2018-03-19T18:30:17Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > The doctors at the CDC came up with studies that used the case control method, traditionally an epidemiology research tool to study murders. That method has yielded results that have come under fire by noted criminologists who have studies that show just the opposite. > > Criminologists are experts in Crime. > > Doctors are experts in Disease. > > So they were biased going in, and they used a method that noted experts in the field say can’t yield proper results. > > Many of their controls were questionable. Repeating what you have already said is not a cite. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2018, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-gun-control-laws-work-who-can-prove-this-wiki-informaiton-false/810498/131 "2018-03-19T18:34:05Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Repeating what you have already said is not a cite. Well, since I have cited well known criminologists before , and their criticism of said papers, I didnt think I needed to yet again. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2018, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-gun-control-laws-work-who-can-prove-this-wiki-informaiton-false/810498/132 "2018-03-19T18:38:16Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Yes, but I was using them as a example of how even a very pro gun org states to it’s members that such is illegal. I have told you many times that selling to or buying a gun out of state is illegal unless done thru a FFL. You keep asking the question, I keep answering it. > > \*\*IT.IS. ILLEGAL. \*\* It _doesn’t matter_ whether _you_ say it’s illegal. This is not like different religious sects arguing about whether something is a sin, or haram. You live in a society with positive laws. Sin, that’s an opinion. Law, that’s a matter of what the authorities say. It’s not a matter of opinion, unless there is some ambiguity in case law, and then it’s a matter of a judge’s opinion, _not of propaganda from an industry lobby._ ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2018, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-gun-control-laws-work-who-can-prove-this-wiki-informaiton-false/810498/133 "2018-03-19T18:46:46Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > It _doesn’t matter_ whether _you_ say it’s illegal. This is not like different religious sects arguing about whether something is a sin, or haram. You live in a society with positive laws. Sin, that’s an opinion. Law, that’s a matter of what the authorities say. It’s not a matter of opinion, unless there is some ambiguity in case law, and then it’s a matter of a judge’s opinion, _not of propaganda from an industry lobby._ I dont understand. You asked if it was illegal. I said it was. I am not stating my personal opinion. It is a simple matter of federal law. Google it. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2018, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-gun-control-laws-work-who-can-prove-this-wiki-informaiton-false/810498/134 "2018-03-19T18:53:28Z")
Does the law require me to ask the person I’m selling to if they live out of state? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2018, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-gun-control-laws-work-who-can-prove-this-wiki-informaiton-false/810498/135 "2018-03-19T19:08:59Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Does the law require me to ask the person I’m selling to if they live out of state? The law doesnt say that\* per se\*, they just say that if you sell to someone from out of state, you are both in violation. So, I suppose you dont have to _ask,_ but if you dont and they are from out of state, you have committed a federal crime. [https://www.atf.gov/resource-center/docs/0501-firearms-top-10-qaspdf/download2](https://www.atf.gov/resource-center/docs/0501-firearms-top-10-qaspdf/download2). M\*ay I lawfully transfer a firearm to a friend who resides in a different State? Under Federal law, an unlicensed individual is prohibited from transferring a firearm to an individual who does not reside in the State where the transferee resides. Generally, for a person to lawfully transfer a firearm to an unlicensed person who resides out of State, the firearm must be shipped to a Federal Firearms Licensee (FFL) within the recipient’s State of residence. He or she may then receive the firearm from the FFL upon completion of an ATF Form 4473 and a NICS background check. More information can be obtained on the ATF website at [www.atf.gov](http://www.atf.gov) and [http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/unlicensed-persons.html](http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/unlicensed-persons.html). The GCA provides an exception from this prohibition for temporary loans or rentals of firearms for lawful sporting purposes. Thus, for example, a friend visiting you may borrow a firearm from you to go hunting. Another exception is provided for transfers of firearms to nonresidents to carry out a lawful bequest or acquisition by intestate succession. This exception would authorize the transfer of a firearm to a nonresident who inherits a firearm under the will of a decedent. See 18 U.S.C. 922(a)(5). \* ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2018, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-gun-control-laws-work-who-can-prove-this-wiki-informaiton-false/810498/136 "2018-03-19T19:16:40Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Look, those doctors did bad science to prove their point. That just is not acceptable. Nope, you are still not showing that at all, and on top of that you can not explain why their research is still seen as valid and cited elsewhere. The point I made stands: it was a political choice, not a scientific one and more reason then to change the law someday. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2018, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-gun-control-laws-work-who-can-prove-this-wiki-informaiton-false/810498/137 "2018-03-19T19:45:12Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > The law doesnt say that\* per se\*, they just say that if you sell to someone from out of state, you are both in violation. So, I suppose you dont have to _ask,_ but if you dont and they are from out of state, you have committed a federal crime. Well, I just looked it up, the law says “for any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) to transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) **who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in** (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the transferor resides” (bolding mine). So, if I don’t know the guy lives out of state, looks like it’s perfectly legal to sell him a gun. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2018, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-gun-control-laws-work-who-can-prove-this-wiki-informaiton-false/810498/138 "2018-03-19T21:06:59Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Well, I just looked it up, the law says “for any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) to transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) **who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in** (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the transferor resides” (bolding mine). > > So, if I don’t know the guy lives out of state, looks like it’s perfectly legal to sell him a gun. Not just “know” but also "has reasonable cause to believe:. If you think that will protect you, fine.:dubious: But the guy buying the gun knows he is from out of state, right? So he is violating the law. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2018, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-gun-control-laws-work-who-can-prove-this-wiki-informaiton-false/810498/139 "2018-03-20T01:44:07Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Not just “know” but also "has reasonable cause to believe:. > > If you think that will protect you, fine.:dubious: But the guy buying the gun knows he is from out of state, right? So he is violating the law. Unless there is evidence to prove otherwise what you “know” is a bullet proof defense as long as you stick to your story that you had no idea. See it happen with white collar criminals a lot who have good defense attorneys to advise them to answer, “I don’t remember/I don’t know,” to pretty much any question asked of them. Apart from that why are people going out of state? Is it hard to find a gun seller in some states? A cursory search showed me numerous online gun classified ads in every state and gun shows seem very common (at least one a month if not more…sometimes a little less) in the sample of states I looked at. Seems trivial to buy a gun in a state you live in unless you are looking for a very specific gun (which I doubt most criminals meaning to use it for crime would be fussy about). ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2018, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-gun-control-laws-work-who-can-prove-this-wiki-informaiton-false/810498/140 "2018-03-20T13:47:34Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > But the guy buying the gun knows he is from out of state, right? So he is violating the law. Sure, but the original question was about SELLING a gun. Not buying one. Here is the original question from **k9bfriender** : “Yes, but if you sell a gun to someone that you do not know is from out of state, have you broken a law?” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-gun-control-laws-work-who-can-prove-this-wiki-informaiton-false/810498.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-gun-control-laws-work-who-can-prove-this-wiki-informaiton-false/810498.md?page=8)