# Do Gun control laws work? Who can prove this wiki informaiton false? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 13, 2018, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-gun-control-laws-work-who-can-prove-this-wiki-informaiton-false/810498 "2018-03-13T17:38:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2018, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-gun-control-laws-work-who-can-prove-this-wiki-informaiton-false/810498/141 "2018-03-20T13:49:30Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Seems trivial to buy a gun in a state you live in unless you are looking for a very specific gun (which I doubt most criminals meaning to use it for crime would be fussy about). One would think that. But there are people on this very board who think only having 700 types of guns available for purchase is an infringement on their 2nd amendment rights. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2018, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-gun-control-laws-work-who-can-prove-this-wiki-informaiton-false/810498/142 "2018-03-20T15:35:41Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Yes, even the NRA states that such is illegal. Yes, the NRA says that such is illegal, but what is the actual law? > [@](#): > > Whether or not you feel that all suicides must be prevented, that is a big side issue, and the number of suicicdes is only included to make the numbers more scary. It would be a strawman on your part to think that I said anything about preventing all suicides. I never said anything remotely like that. I did say that guns increase the rate of suicide, and laid out why I believe that to be so. That has nothing to do with what you just claimed. You repeating that they are just included to make them scary does not make your statement any truer. You may not agree that they should be in there, but they are on just put in the to scare people. Put it this way. If alarm clocks had next to the snooze button, a “Just kill me now” button, do you think that the rate of suicide would go up? Yes, the convenience and availability of methods of suicide do affect the rate of suicide. > [@DrDeth](#): > > Not just “know” but also "has reasonable cause to believe:. > > If you think that will protect you, fine.:dubious: But the guy buying the gun knows he is from out of state, right? So he is violating the law. So, we finally get down to it. If you sell a gun to someone that you did not “know” was from out of state, you have broken no laws, same as if you didn’t “know” they were a criminal or otherwise prohibited from purchasing a gun. Which was my point forever ago, and that you continued to dance and obfuscate to avoid admitting. What was the point of that, I wonder? ETA: late to the party, I see manson1972 has already made this point. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2018, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-gun-control-laws-work-who-can-prove-this-wiki-informaiton-false/810498/143 "2018-03-20T19:00:25Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Yes, the NRA says that such is illegal, but what is the actual law? > > So, we finally get down to it. If you sell a gun to someone that you did not “know” was from out of state, you have broken no laws, same as if you didn’t “know” they were a criminal or otherwise prohibited from purchasing a gun. Which was my point forever ago, and that you continued to dance and obfuscate to avoid admitting. What was the point of that, I wonder? > ETA: late to the party, I see manson1972 has already made this point. [https://www.atf.gov/resource-center/...spdf/download2](https://www.atf.gov/resource-center/...spdf/download2). May I lawfully transfer a firearm to a friend who resides in a different State? Under Federal law, an unlicensed individual is prohibited from transferring a firearm to an individual who does not reside in the State where the transferee resides. Generally, for a person to lawfully transfer a firearm to an unlicensed person who resides out of State, the firearm must be shipped to a Federal Firearms Licensee (FFL) within the recipient’s State of residence. He or she may then receive the firearm from the FFL upon completion of an ATF Form 4473 and a NICS background check. More information can be obtained on the ATF website at [www.atf.gov](http://www.atf.gov) and [http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/unlicensed-persons.html](http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/unlicensed-persons.html). The GCA provides an exception from this prohibition for temporary loans or rentals of firearms for lawful sporting purposes. Thus, for example, a friend visiting you may borrow a firearm from you to go hunting. Another exception is provided for transfers of firearms to nonresidents to carry out a lawful bequest or acquisition by intestate succession. This exception would authorize the transfer of a firearm to a nonresident who inherits a firearm under the will of a decedent. See 18 U.S.C. 922(a)(5). * * * If that was your point, why didnt you make it? Except of course, the person BUYING the gun has committed a crime. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2018, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-gun-control-laws-work-who-can-prove-this-wiki-informaiton-false/810498/144 "2018-03-20T19:27:52Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > If that was your point, why didnt you make it? I did, several times. You would then incorrectly state that no, you cannot sell a gun to someone out of state in an attempt to refute my point. > [@](#): > > Except of course, the person BUYING the gun has committed a crime. Yes, the person buying the gun is committing a crime. Never had any question on that. They are aware of being from out of state, or being a criminal or otherwise prohibited. They probably plan on USING it in a crime. Most black market transactions are illegal. But the person selling the gun INTO the black market has broken no laws, as long as you cannot prove that they didn’t know that the buyer was from out of state. And that was my point, which I have made on several occasions, only to be interrupted by you incorrectly stating that the seller would be breaking the law. “Law abiding” private sellers who don’t bother to check the ID of the people wishing to buy from their “collections” are a large source of guns entering the black market, which then end up going to states other than that they were purchased at, which makes state laws about gun effectively useless. It is this loophole that you keep trying to deny that feeds guns across state borders with no consequence for the people who put these guns into the blackmarket. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2018, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-gun-control-laws-work-who-can-prove-this-wiki-informaiton-false/810498/145 "2018-03-20T19:34:23Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > I did, several times. You would then incorrectly state that no, you cannot sell a gun to someone out of state in an attempt to refute my point. > Yes, the person buying the gun is committing a crime. Never had any question on that. They are aware of being from out of state, or being a criminal or otherwise prohibited. They probably plan on USING it in a crime. Most black market transactions are illegal. > > But the person selling the gun INTO the black market has broken no laws, as long as you cannot prove that they didn’t know that the buyer was from out of state. > > And that was my point, which I have made on several occasions, only to be interrupted by you incorrectly stating that the seller would be breaking the law. “Law abiding” private sellers who don’t bother to check the ID of the people wishing to buy from their “collections” are a large source of guns entering the black market, which then end up going to states other than that they were purchased at, which makes state laws about gun effectively useless. It is this loophole that you keep trying to deny that feeds guns across state borders with no consequence for the people who put these guns into the blackmarket. **The transfer is illegal.** Yes, the seller has a possible out, if he can show that he did not " who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in" which is kinda hard to prove, no? Do you have a cite for that claim? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2018, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-gun-control-laws-work-who-can-prove-this-wiki-informaiton-false/810498/146 "2018-03-20T20:00:51Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > **The transfer is illegal.** Yes, the seller has a possible out, if he can show that he did not > " who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in" which is kinda hard to prove, no? You do realize that the way the law works is that the law has to prove guilt, the defendant doesn’t have to prove innocence. It is on the state to prove that the seller knew or had reasonable cause to know, which is kinda hard to prove, no? > [@](#): > > Do you have a cite for that claim? Not sure what claim you are thinking I am making, but I have a cite [for the law](https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/922). > [@](#): > > who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in You are the one that is claiming that the seller is breaking the law here, in contradiction to the actual law that has been cited for you. If you think that the seller is breaking the law, if he cannot be proven to have known or had reason to know that he was selling it to a prohibited person, the you it on you to cite that. Anyway, I do understand why you refuse to acknowledge this fact that has been cited for you. Without it, your entire “it’s just an excuse” argument is utterly useless. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2018, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-gun-control-laws-work-who-can-prove-this-wiki-informaiton-false/810498/147 "2018-03-20T20:45:47Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > You do realize that the way the law works is that the law has to prove guilt, the defendant doesn’t have to prove innocence. > > It is on the state to prove that the seller knew or had reasonable cause to know, which is kinda hard to prove, no? > Not sure what claim you are thinking I am making, but I have a cite [for the law](https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/922). > > Anyway, I do understand why you refuse to acknowledge this fact that has been cited for you. Without it, your entire “it’s just an excuse” argument is utterly useless. In any case, \*\*the transfer is illegal. \*\* I never refused to acknowledge it. The transfer continues to be illegal. Your claim that: "_“Law abiding” private sellers who don’t bother to check the ID of the people wishing to buy from their “collections” are a large source of guns entering the black market, which then end up going to states other than that they were purchased at, which makes state laws about gun effectively useless."_ ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2018, 11:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-gun-control-laws-work-who-can-prove-this-wiki-informaiton-false/810498/148 "2018-03-21T11:30:45Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > In any case, \*\*the transfer is illegal. \*\* > > I never refused to acknowledge it. The transfer continues to be illegal. > > Your claim that: "_“Law abiding” private sellers who don’t bother to check the ID of the people wishing to buy from their “collections” are a large source of guns entering the black market, which then end up going to states other than that they were purchased at, which makes state laws about gun effectively useless."_ Question. Let’s say I have a gun and sell it in a private sale. Is that sale tracked in a database, or does it evaporate into the ether the moment my buyer drives away? I’m going to feel a lot less confident about the enforceability of these laws if nothing is tracked. Without tracking, it’s a very short step from “the government is regulating firearm transfers” to “complete free for all”. ---
**Author:** ![Jon\_in\_PDX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d26b3c/32.png) [@Jon\_in\_PDX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jon_in_PDX)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2018, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-gun-control-laws-work-who-can-prove-this-wiki-informaiton-false/810498/149 "2018-03-21T15:14:52Z")
From the [ATF](https://www.atf.gov/questions-and-answers/qa/what-recordkeeping-procedures-should-be-followed-when-two-unlicensed): “When a transaction takes place between unlicensed persons who reside in the same State, the GCA does not require any record keeping.” ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2018, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-gun-control-laws-work-who-can-prove-this-wiki-informaiton-false/810498/150 "2018-03-21T19:19:22Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > Question. Let’s say I have a gun and sell it in a private sale. Is that sale tracked in a database, or does it evaporate into the ether the moment my buyer drives away? > > I’m going to feel a lot less confident about the enforceability of these laws if nothing is tracked. Without tracking, it’s a very short step from “the government is regulating firearm transfers” to “complete free for all”. It varies state by state. In CA, you basically can’t have any private sales, all must go thru a FFL. But unless you sell enough guns to be considered “in the business”, the Feds do not require tracking. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2018, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-gun-control-laws-work-who-can-prove-this-wiki-informaiton-false/810498/151 "2018-03-22T03:34:29Z")
So as a law-abiding citizen of Maryland, I can simply ask the guy (who is from DC) - “Are you a Maryland resident?” and if he says “Yes I am”, then I’m in the clear. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2018, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-gun-control-laws-work-who-can-prove-this-wiki-informaiton-false/810498/152 "2018-03-22T18:31:26Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > So as a law-abiding citizen of Maryland, I can simply ask the guy (who is from DC) - “Are you a Maryland resident?” and if he says “Yes I am”, then I’m in the clear. Unless you have any reason to believe his isn’t a resident of Maryland. However, _he_ is violating the law, which makes the transfer illegal. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2018, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-gun-control-laws-work-who-can-prove-this-wiki-informaiton-false/810498/153 "2018-03-22T19:03:06Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Unless you have any reason to believe his isn’t a resident of Maryland. > > However, _he_ is violating the law, which makes the transfer illegal. I don’t care if he is violating the law. I know that I’m not. What he does is his own business. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2018, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-gun-control-laws-work-who-can-prove-this-wiki-informaiton-false/810498/154 "2018-03-22T19:35:51Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > However, _he_ is violating the law, which makes the transfer illegal. So? Because the seller is in the clear and has no reason to pry for more information it is then trivial for a criminal who should not be able to buy a gun to buy a gun. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2018, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-gun-control-laws-work-who-can-prove-this-wiki-informaiton-false/810498/155 "2018-03-22T21:13:17Z")
The point was made that people can go to another state and buy a gun. True, in some cases. But you can not do so legally. Thus if the criminal is already going to violated a couple laws, why would another one matter? “They flagrantly disregard the laws we passed, thus obviously we need more!”:rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2018, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-gun-control-laws-work-who-can-prove-this-wiki-informaiton-false/810498/156 "2018-03-22T21:36:43Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > The point was made that people can go to another state and buy a gun. True, in some cases. But you can not do so legally. Thus if the criminal is already going to violated a couple laws, why would another one matter? > > “They flagrantly disregard the laws we passed, thus obviously we need more!”:rolleyes: Yeah. The law as it stands is near useless since it is trivial for the seller to not worry about who the gun is being sold to. Make the seller more responsible such that they have to have the sale ok’d through someone with an FFL and mandate a background check. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2018, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-gun-control-laws-work-who-can-prove-this-wiki-informaiton-false/810498/157 "2018-03-22T21:54:54Z")
You might as well sell them from vending machines that have a small sticker in the corner that says “NOT FOR SALE TO OUT-OF-STATERS”. Remember how effective that was in keeping cigarettes out of the hands of kids? ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2018, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-gun-control-laws-work-who-can-prove-this-wiki-informaiton-false/810498/158 "2018-03-23T01:15:59Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > The point was made that people can go to another state and buy a gun. True, in some cases. But you can not do so legally. Thus if the criminal is already going to violated a couple laws, why would another one matter? > > “They flagrantly disregard the laws we passed, thus obviously we need more!”:rolleyes: I thought the point was anyone can sell a gun to anyone without any background check or paperwork and it’s totally legal as long as the seller says “I was sure he was from this state” ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2018, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-gun-control-laws-work-who-can-prove-this-wiki-informaiton-false/810498/159 "2018-03-23T02:48:13Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > I thought the point was anyone can sell a gun to anyone without any background check or paperwork and it’s totally legal as long as the seller says “I was sure he was from this state” Whoever knows the buyer is from a different state from the seller is breaking the law. The seller need not ask though and is thus legally in the clear unless someone tells him otherwise. The person buying the gun of course knows he is from a different state than the seller and thus the buyer is breaking the law with no way to claim ignorance as a defense. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2018, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-gun-control-laws-work-who-can-prove-this-wiki-informaiton-false/810498/160 "2018-03-23T03:43:48Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > I thought the point was anyone can sell a gun to anyone without any background check or paperwork and it’s totally legal as long as the seller says “I was sure he was from this state” No, the\* seller\* has a possible out, if he can claim that in good faith. The Buyer has violated federal law- a couple times, in fact. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-gun-control-laws-work-who-can-prove-this-wiki-informaiton-false/810498.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-gun-control-laws-work-who-can-prove-this-wiki-informaiton-false/810498.md?page=9)