# Do guns make a home safer or not? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 6, 2006, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-guns-make-a-home-safer-or-not/351577 "2006-04-06T14:20:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2006, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-guns-make-a-home-safer-or-not/351577/21 "2006-04-06T18:05:57Z")
Association between handgun purchase and mortality from firearm injury K M Grassel, G J Wintemute, M A Wright and M P Romero [http://ip.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/9/1/48](http://ip.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/9/1/48) Persons who died from intentional violence were more likely than those who died from non-injury causes to have purchased a handgun (odds ratio (OR) 5.7; 95% confidence interval (CI) 4.8 to 6.8) (table 2Go). This was also true for the subsets of cases dying from suicide (OR 6.8; 95% CI 5.7 to 8.1) and homicide (OR 2.4; 95% CI 1.6 to 3.7), and particularly for those dying from gun suicide (OR 12.5; 95% CI 10.4 to 15.0) or gun homicide (OR 3.3; 95% CI 2.1 to 5.3). No such difference was seen for cases dying from non-gun suicide or homicide. Very recent handgun purchase, defined as purchase within one year of death, was strongly associated with violent or firearm related injury death (table 3Go). This was again the case for both suicide (OR 12.5; 95% CI 10.0 to 15.6) and homicide (OR 3.9; 95% CI 2.2 to 6.8), and particularly gun suicide (OR 22.7; 95% CI 18.2 to 28.4) and gun homicide (OR 5.8; 95% CI 3.1 to 10.8). The association between handgun purchase and violent death was stronger among women than in the study population as a whole (table 4Go). In particular, women who died from gun suicide were much more likely to have purchased a handgun than women who died from non-injury causes (OR 109.8; 95% CI 61.6 to 195.7). Since 79.3% (3748 of 4728) of the cases were men, odds ratios for men were very similar to those for all cases and are not shown separately. Almost 22% (252 of 1162) of deaths among handgun purchasers were firearm related. Gun suicide accounted for 18.9% of deaths among handgun purchasers and 0.6% of deaths among non-purchasers. Gun suicide was the third leading cause of death among male handgun purchasers, accounting for 17.5% of all deaths (188 of 1076), but made up only 1.1% of deaths among male non-purchasers (1155 of 104 536). Gun suicide was the leading cause of death for female purchasers and accounted for 37.2% of all deaths in that group (32 of 86), but accounted for only 0.2% of deaths among female non-purchasers (171 of 107 768). Gun suicide was also the leading cause of death among persons who purchased a handgun within one year of death, accounting for 29.3% of all deaths in that population (167 of 569). Handgun purchasers made up just 0.5% of our study population (1162 of 213 466 persons), but accounted for 5.8% of all violent deaths (275 of 4728), 7.8% of suicides (237 of 3035), and 1.9% of homicides (32 of 1657). Similarly, purchasers accounted for 14.2% of gun suicides (220 of 1546), 2.4% of gun homicides (26 of 1102), and 16.7% of unintentional gun deaths (six of 36). Of all handgun purchasers who died in 1998, 48.9% (569 of 1162) bought a handgun within one year of their deaths. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2006, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-guns-make-a-home-safer-or-not/351577/22 "2006-04-06T18:09:03Z")
> [@simster](#): > > You first have to better define what you want to be safer from? > > External violence (ala home robbery) by people that are unknown to you? Yes, I am of the opinion that Gun ownership makes things arguably safer… the criminal element largely depends upon folks that are unwilling or unalbe to fight back… the more that are willing and able, the more the criminal(s) will second guess when/where to attack. So, while it may not prevent your house being robbed, it may very well prevent you being robbed when you are likely to be home. Similar reports with “street violence” going down in areas where concealed carry laws were inacted… the would be robbers are less likely to attack if the risks are higher to them. > > One could argue that the criminal will respond with the use of more aggressive techniques…or that they will target known "gun owners’ (when they are not home) in order to get the guns. > > Now, if you are taking the position that those in posession of guns are more likely to use them (when they are angry, depressed) against others of the same household… well, statistics will probably prove that houses with guns are more prone to gun violence… but those are biased statistics… houses without guns simply use ‘other means’ in these situations. > > In the end, it will always be debatable because each side of the debate chooses which evidence it wishes to argue… Criminals, by definition, could care less about what new ‘laws’ are enacted… new laws on Gun ownership only serve to take away rights of the law abiding citizen, and do absolutely nothing to prevent the criminal usage of them. > > Enforcing the already existing laws, and making the punishment for gun related criminal activities much more severe is what is needed to curb _some_ of the issue. I really doubt that you can find statistics that would show a marked difference in safety or harm from gun ownership. What do you think are the percentage of crimes actually stopped by having a gun in the home. How many accidental shooting are there in a year. Both are so low compared to traffic accidents as to make the comparison meaningless. I don’t think you can say that gun ownership would make the average household either safer or more dangerous. It is statistically negligible. Jim ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2006, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-guns-make-a-home-safer-or-not/351577/23 "2006-04-06T18:12:07Z")
> [@jebert](#): > > It is my understanding that it is not the Supreme Court doing the dodging; it is the opponents and proponents of gun control. Either side could easily bring a test case through the system, but the risk of it going the wrong way is much too great. They are both content to work to influence the legislative branch; nobody wants to risk a definitive ruling on the matter. The Supreme Court hasn’t touched an actual 2nd Amendment case since 1939. It’s not as though they haven’t had ample opportunity since then. 67 years of case law and not a single one about the 2nd Amendment, the most controversial amendment out there, has gotten to the Supreme Court? Yeah, they’re ducking it. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2006, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-guns-make-a-home-safer-or-not/351577/24 "2006-04-06T18:19:17Z")
> [@What Exit?](#): > > I really doubt that you can find statistics that would show a marked difference in safety or harm from gun ownership. What do you think are the percentage of crimes actually stopped by having a gun in the home. How many accidental shooting are there in a year. Both are so low compared to traffic accidents as to make the comparison meaningless. I don’t think you can say that gun ownership would make the average household either safer or more dangerous. It is statistically negligible. > > Jim That’s mostly true, especially when you consider that there are no statistics for “no crime this year and the guy just bought a gun”… but there are studies/statistics (texas/florida I think both have communities) where concealed carry was enacted and crime went down… therefore there is a corrolation to be made between _responsible_ gun ownership and overall criminal activity decreasing. Of all the stats that were posted above…ok… that is what I said… homes/people with Guns were ‘more likely’ to have gun related ‘issues’… simply because they have the gun… but that does nothing to address the issue that "non crimes/no accidents by gun owners’ are not reported or statistically there. ---
**Author:** ![Antinor01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecae2f/32.png) [@Antinor01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antinor01)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2006, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-guns-make-a-home-safer-or-not/351577/25 "2006-04-06T18:24:35Z")
I see no reason to think I’d be safer with a gun. I live on the third floor of a controlled access building, so chance of outside violence is slim. I have no reason to fear violence from inside my home. That’s all irrelevant though as I do not allow guns in my home. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2006, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-guns-make-a-home-safer-or-not/351577/26 "2006-04-06T18:26:07Z")
> [@simster](#): > > That’s mostly true, especially when you consider that there are no statistics for “no crime this year and the guy just bought a gun”… but there are studies/statistics (texas/florida I think both have communities) where concealed carry was enacted and crime went down… therefore there is a corrolation to be made between _responsible_ gun ownership and overall criminal activity decreasing. …snip… I find that easy to believe but I am a Heinlein fan and I think he wrote correctly that communities where people can legally carry firearms are communities where people have to be politer and criminals more cautious. Jim {Not that I plan to ever own a gun, but I respect others rights to them} ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2006, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-guns-make-a-home-safer-or-not/351577/27 "2006-04-06T18:27:32Z")
> [@griffin1977](#): > > Association between handgun purchase and mortality from firearm injury > K M Grassel, G J Wintemute, M A Wright and M P Romero > [http://ip.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/9/1/48](http://ip.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/9/1/48) > > Persons who died from intentional violence were more likely than those who died from non-injury causes to have purchased a handgun (odds ratio (OR) 5.7; 95% confidence interval (CI) 4.8 to 6.8) (table 2Go)… > > Very recent handgun purchase, defined as purchase within one year of death, was strongly associated with violent or firearm related injury death (table 3Go)… You know, I’d be _more_ interested in the correlation between _not-recent_ purchases and deaths - presumably, you’d remove the bulk of people who bought the gun to kill somebody or commit suicide. There would still be some who bought the gun to further their crime careers, but it’d be _closer_ to the population I’m after - those who are trying to make themselves safer. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2006, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-guns-make-a-home-safer-or-not/351577/28 "2006-04-06T18:39:36Z")
> [@bup](#): > > You know, I’d be _more_ interested in the correlation between _not-recent_ purchases and deaths - presumably, you’d remove the bulk of people who bought the gun to kill somebody or commit suicide. There would still be some who bought the gun to further their crime careers, but it’d be _closer_ to the population I’m after - those who are trying to make themselves safer. “very recent” only counts as 1 year or less (and that is only one statistic the main study considers firearm purchases in the last three years). Admittedly they chances are if you brought a gun one day and kill yourself or someone else the next what you say might be true. But if you brought a gun six months ago its unlikely you brought specifically to kill your wife/self/neighbour/brother-in-law today. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2006, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-guns-make-a-home-safer-or-not/351577/29 "2006-04-06T18:40:22Z")
> [@bup](#): > > While that’s literally true, I’d expect you, **BobLibDem** , to acknowledge that courts often do what’s politically expedient, not what’s intellectually honest. I happily acknowledge this. See Gore v Bush. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2006, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-guns-make-a-home-safer-or-not/351577/30 "2006-04-06T18:49:52Z")
Another cite (same author)… Gun Ownership as a Risk Factor for Homicide in the Home Arthur L. Kellermann, Frederick P. Rivara, Norman B. Rushforth, Joyce G. Banton, Donald T. Reay, Jerry T. Francisco, Ana B. Locci, Janice Prodzinski, Bela B. Hackman, and Grant Somes [http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/329/15/1084?ijkey=9c6a5eb16b23ae1098b164f047238845ac4f5077](http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/329/15/1084?ijkey=9c6a5eb16b23ae1098b164f047238845ac4f5077) During the study period, 1860 homicides occurred in the three counties, 444 of them (23.9 percent) in the home of the victim. After excluding 24 cases for various reasons, we interviewed proxy respondents for 93 percent of the victims. Controls were identified for 99 percent of these, yielding 388 matched pairs. As compared with the controls, the victims more often lived alone or rented their residence. Also, case households more commonly contained an illicit-drug user, a person with prior arrests, or someone who had been hit or hurt in a fight in the home. **After controlling for these characteristics, we found that keeping a gun in the home was strongly and independently associated with an increased risk of homicide (adjusted odds ratio, 2.7; 95 percent confidence interval, 1.6 to 4.4). Virtually all of this risk involved homicide by a family member or intimate acquaintance.** ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2006, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-guns-make-a-home-safer-or-not/351577/31 "2006-04-06T18:54:01Z")
> [@bup](#): > > There would still be some who bought the gun to further their crime careers, but it’d be _closer_ to the population I’m after - those who are trying to make themselves safer. Remember also this study only considers LEGAL gun purchases. Those guns purchased with the specific intention of commiting a crime are just as relevant to the overall cost/benefit analysis as guns that were purchased for self defence but ended being used in a drunken domestic dispute. ---
**Author:** ![Unregistered\_Bull](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3da27b/32.png) [@Unregistered\_Bull](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unregistered_Bull)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2006, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-guns-make-a-home-safer-or-not/351577/32 "2006-04-06T19:17:00Z")
> [@Fear Itself](#): > > People should be able to have them. But they should be subjected to scorn if they claim they are safer because of them. Really? Electricity runs the fridge that keeps food cold and cuts down food borne bacteria. When you live way out in the sticks, your own car can get you to the hospital faster than any ambulance. And chemicals, they’re whole myriad of chemicals from drugs to cleaning supplies that can make life safer while at the same time being pretty dangerous. Etc. Etc. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2006, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-guns-make-a-home-safer-or-not/351577/33 "2006-04-06T19:20:50Z")
> [@Airman Doors](#): > > The Supreme Court hasn’t touched an actual 2nd Amendment case since 1939. It’s not as though they haven’t had ample opportunity since then. 67 years of case law and not a single one about the 2nd Amendment, the most controversial amendment out there, has gotten to the Supreme Court? Yeah, they’re ducking it. Now that I think about it, I expect that the Court _and_ both sides of the dispute are avoiding it; the court wants to avoid the firestorm that would erupt no matter _what_ they ruled, and neither side wants to lose. For that matter, I expect many of the higher ups don’t want to _win_ either; they’d lose political leverage, not to mention their jobs in many cases ( who’s going to fund the Outlaw Guns Group ( made up name ), if guns _are_ outlawed ? ). ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2006, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-guns-make-a-home-safer-or-not/351577/34 "2006-04-06T19:21:51Z")
> [@Airman Doors](#): > > The Supreme Court hasn’t touched an actual 2nd Amendment case since 1939. It’s not as though they haven’t had ample opportunity since then. 67 years of case law and not a single one about the 2nd Amendment, the most controversial amendment out there, has gotten to the Supreme Court? Yeah, they’re ducking it. They’ve been dodging it longer than that – in the 1939 case (Miller), the court avoided the general question “Do individuals have a right to keep and bear arms?” by ruling on the narrow technical question “Is this specific weapon included in the term ‘arms’?” IMO, the Master has pretty much hit this nail on the head – the “well-regulated militia” clause means that the government doesn’t have to tolerate armed bands of yahoos answerable to no one, but doesn’t flat-out negate the main “the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed” clause, as BobLibDem’s interpretation would have it. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2006, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-guns-make-a-home-safer-or-not/351577/35 "2006-04-06T19:35:40Z")
> [@Unregistered Bull](#): > > Really? Electricity runs the fridge that keeps food cold and cuts down food borne bacteria. […] But that doesn’t mean it’s a net safety plus. Electricity might be, but most of the things on that list (certainly cars and swimming pools), although they may provide some indirect safety benefits, overall are a net safety minus. That doesn’t deter us from using them, though, because they have other advantages that outweigh the safety-risk problem. **bup** ’s point from post #11 bears repeating: the question is not whether some dangerous items have usefulness that outweighs their safety risks. Safety isn’t their chief selling point. The question is whether a gun that is acquired **only** for safety reasons is actually, on average, a net plus or minus when it comes to safety. ---
**Author:** ![Unregistered\_Bull](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3da27b/32.png) [@Unregistered\_Bull](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unregistered_Bull)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2006, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-guns-make-a-home-safer-or-not/351577/36 "2006-04-06T19:39:56Z")
> [@bup](#): > > Ah, but let me make a small distinction. > > _Given_ that it’s legal for would-be intruders to have them, do you make yourself safer by having one or not? > > **A gun? Jiminy Christmas man, if an intruder is armed than I’m a damn sight better off being armed, hopefully with something ‘more substantial’ than what the intruder has.** > > In other words, I get what the advantage of owning a cleaning bucket is, and the tradeoff. > > If the only advantage I get from owning a gun is trying to make my house safer, am I right? > > **It depends. Are you leaving it around for your kids to get? Do you routinely have violent domestic disputes? Are you smart enough to know which end the bullet comes out of? Etc. Etc.** > > So, yes, your argument holds up for hunters, or people who like to go to a rifle range for sport…whether or not it’s safer, it’s something people are willing to risk. > > But if the only reason to own one is the perceived safety, is it rational to own a gun? > > **If you are smart enough to know which end the bullets come out of, if you can keep it out of the reach of children and still accessible, if you’re not suicidal, if you and your old lady (or old man) don’t get into knock down, drag outs, etc. etc., then yes. Some of these might be a disqualifer for you personally, but not me nor many other people.** **Bold text mine.** ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2006, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-guns-make-a-home-safer-or-not/351577/37 "2006-04-06T19:42:45Z")
> [@Unregistered Bull](#): > > If you are smart enough to know which end the bullets come out of, if you can keep it out of the reach of children and still accessible, if you’re not suicidal, if you and your old lady (or old man) don’t get into knock down, drag outs, etc. etc., then yes. Some of these might be a disqualifer for you personally, but not me nor many other people. I’ll post that again… > [@](#): > > As compared with the controls, the victims more often lived alone or rented their residence. Also, case households more commonly contained an illicit-drug user, a person with prior arrests, or someone who had been hit or hurt in a fight in the home. **After controlling for these characteristics** , we found that keeping a gun in the home was strongly and independently associated with an increased risk of homicide (adjusted odds ratio, 2.7; 95 percent confidence interval, 1.6 to 4.4). Virtually all of this risk involved homicide by a family member or intimate acquaintance. ---
**Author:** ![Unregistered\_Bull](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3da27b/32.png) [@Unregistered\_Bull](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unregistered_Bull)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2006, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-guns-make-a-home-safer-or-not/351577/38 "2006-04-06T19:49:17Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > **bup** ’s point from post #11 bears repeating: the question is not whether some dangerous items have usefulness that outweighs their safety risks. Safety isn’t their chief selling point. Tons of firearms are sold for non-safety reasons and kept at home. ---
**Author:** ![Unregistered\_Bull](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3da27b/32.png) [@Unregistered\_Bull](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unregistered_Bull)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2006, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-guns-make-a-home-safer-or-not/351577/39 "2006-04-06T19:51:10Z")
> [@griffin1977](#): > > I’ll post that again… That’s fine it isn’t worth the paper that it’s written on. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2006, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-guns-make-a-home-safer-or-not/351577/40 "2006-04-06T19:56:26Z")
> [@griffin1977](#): > > Virtually all of this risk involved homicide by a family member or intimate acquaintance. So… To minimize risk… if you own guns, live alone and seperate from your family. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-guns-make-a-home-safer-or-not/351577.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-guns-make-a-home-safer-or-not/351577.md?page=3)