# Do hardcore vegans abstain from honey? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 30, 2003, 8:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-hardcore-vegans-abstain-from-honey/151574 "2003-01-30T08:10:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![zqhltb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/f04885/32.png) [@zqhltb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zqhltb)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2003, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-hardcore-vegans-abstain-from-honey/151574/21 "2003-01-30T15:45:33Z")
> [@](#): > > Seriously though - > > Do hardcore vegans swallow after performing fellatio? > > (Don’t tell me you’ve never thought about it!) I am a vegetarian, but not a vegan, and I think the vegan beliefs stem mainly from the mistreatment of animals in a farm setting. They don’t believe in eating food that causes pain or mental anguish to the animal it comes from, so there’s a green light on semen as no pain or mental anguish was caused to the lucky guy (quite the opposite, really) 😉 ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2003, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-hardcore-vegans-abstain-from-honey/151574/22 "2003-01-30T15:57:41Z")
Placenta is another ‘food’ that doesn’t require the death of anything. Anyway, fruitarians see fruit (and grain) differently than vegetables, because the meat of the fruit was going to die anyway - so yeah, it’s living flesh, but you don’t kill it the way you kill a carrot plant in order to eat it. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2003, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-hardcore-vegans-abstain-from-honey/151574/23 "2003-01-30T15:59:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by CookingWithGas \* > **Fruit is a living organism, as is any plant-based food.** No, a piece of fruit is not a living organism. If you pick an apple off a tree, the tree doesn’t die. In fact, you needn’t even pick it, it’ll fall off. Milk and (unfertilized) eggs aren’t “living organisms” either, but I think vegans make the distinction that cows and chickens are sentient creatures who are tormented and harmed in the acquisition of milk and eggs, whereas trees aren’t sentient creatures. ---
**Author:** ![MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bb73d2/32.png) [@MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MC_Master_of_Ceremonies)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2003, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-hardcore-vegans-abstain-from-honey/151574/24 "2003-01-30T16:39:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Random \* > \*\*If I’ve understanding the point you’re trying to make, I think you’ve got it backwards. I don’t think vegans eat any eggs, whether fertilized or not. Therefore, my question stands. \*\* I’m a hardcore meat-eater but I think vegans object to the processes which are linked to getting the eggs, such as battery farming (or even free-range farming), gassing of the male chicks and slaughter of the animal for meat. ---
**Author:** ![Patty\_O\_Furniture](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/96bed5/32.png) [@Patty\_O\_Furniture](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Patty_O_Furniture)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2003, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-hardcore-vegans-abstain-from-honey/151574/25 "2003-01-30T16:49:21Z")
What about oyster shells? They’re just lying around all over the beach. Can vegans take oyster shell calcium tablets? ---
**Author:** ![BURNER](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ccd318/32.png) [@BURNER](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BURNER)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2003, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-hardcore-vegans-abstain-from-honey/151574/26 "2003-01-30T16:59:19Z")
> [@](#): > > whereas trees aren’t sentient creatures. How do we know?? Asparagus and broccoli have rudimentary nervouse systems similar to an amoebas nervouse system. So even though they dont react they can still feel pain. ---
**Author:** ![the\_fadman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/d78d45/32.png) [@the\_fadman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_fadman)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2003, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-hardcore-vegans-abstain-from-honey/151574/27 "2003-01-30T17:01:07Z")
Is it true that Vegan’s have a shorter life expectancy that meat eaters and vegitarians? Message to H8\_2\_W8 I had a vegan girlfriend and yes she did. Fantastic girl but I had to end it, I could live with out my bacon sandwitch in the morning but soya milk in tea!!!Ahhhhh… :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Markxxx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5daacb/32.png) [@Markxxx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Markxxx)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2003, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-hardcore-vegans-abstain-from-honey/151574/28 "2003-01-30T17:04:16Z")
But don’t animals have to reproduce in order to produce milk. So we are selling veal as a byproduct as we had to keep the cow pregnant to get the milk. That is what is said. Bee produce far more honey than they will ever use. So that is the same as a plant producing fruit. If you buy the argument that you can eat fruit as it falls off the plant anyway. They aren’t goint to use their honey anyway… ---
**Author:** ![Tia3child](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/54ee81/32.png) [@Tia3child](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tia3child)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2003, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-hardcore-vegans-abstain-from-honey/151574/29 "2003-01-30T17:20:42Z")
Off the topic slightly but if you don’t milk a cow doesn’t it become angry and tempermental??? ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2003, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-hardcore-vegans-abstain-from-honey/151574/30 "2003-01-30T17:42:16Z")
**Tia3child** - only if you had been milking it and stopped. If it were lactating because of a calf, the lactation process would slowly stop by itself as the calf got weaned. **BURNER** : “Asparagus and broccoli have rudimentary nervouse systems similar to an amoebas nervouse system. So even though they dont react they can still feel pain.” Cite? ---
**Author:** ![Earthworm\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f07891/32.png) [@Earthworm\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Earthworm_Jim)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2003, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-hardcore-vegans-abstain-from-honey/151574/31 "2003-01-30T17:46:05Z")
It is my understanding that the vegans beef with the rest of us was more _exploiting_ animals than _killing_ them. While the cow doesn’t die to produce milk, it does have to be raised on farm, fed, penned, hooked up to the milkin-bot, etc. ---
**Author:** ![casdave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c6cbf5/32.png) [@casdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/casdave)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2003, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-hardcore-vegans-abstain-from-honey/151574/32 "2003-01-30T17:56:18Z")
Milk production is part of a production process whose toal outputs are interdependant on each other. You cannot produce beef without calves, therefore pregnacny is needed. You cannot produce many products such as leather, certain forms of grease and tallow, glue etc without the adult animal to slaughter. Porduction of milk products would be far less economic without the demand for other cattle based products. In the end you hace an almost circular economic cattle product system where every part of the process is either unviable or uneconomic without another process to consume the surplus. I believe that vegetarians and vegans see milk products as part of a whole system rather than just the milk product in isolation. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Fight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/90ced4/32.png) [@Cat\_Fight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Fight)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2003, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-hardcore-vegans-abstain-from-honey/151574/33 "2003-01-30T17:57:53Z")
Slaughter? Does an old beekeeper have to take the old beese out back with a shotgun 'cause they’re not producing honey anymore? ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2003, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-hardcore-vegans-abstain-from-honey/151574/34 "2003-01-30T18:08:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Cat Fight \* > \*\*Slaughter? Does an old beekeeper have to take the old beese out back with a shotgun 'cause they’re not producing honey anymore? \*\* Not any more. Now they use the big pneumatic hammers, like in cattle slaughterhouses. ---
**Author:** ![I\_can\_t\_believe\_that\_s\_butter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/8edcca/32.png) [@I\_can\_t\_believe\_that\_s\_butter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_can_t_believe_that_s_butter)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2003, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-hardcore-vegans-abstain-from-honey/151574/35 "2003-01-30T18:10:56Z")
I welcome anyone to eat whatever they like that is generally considered “food”, or to not partake of any or all of the same. It’s when certain activists or organizations start telling me what to do with my life that I start having problems. ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2003, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-hardcore-vegans-abstain-from-honey/151574/36 "2003-01-30T18:11:14Z")
Lots of calves are killed to make it possible for me to have milk. And factories are no prize either. Fruits do metabolize and I consider them alive. Honeybees are ranched, but there is no evidence they are badly handled. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2003, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-hardcore-vegans-abstain-from-honey/151574/37 "2003-01-30T18:27:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Cat Fight \* > \*\*Slaughter? Does an old beekeeper have to take the old beese out back with a shotgun 'cause they’re not producing honey anymore? \*\* I have no doubt that bees get routinely squished in the process of harvesting the honey. Not to mention the number that die when being transported and such. They certainly don’t actively squish them, but the beekeeper isn’t going to go terribly far out of his way to avoid a few dead bees. ---
**Author:** ![BURNER](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ccd318/32.png) [@BURNER](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BURNER)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2003, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-hardcore-vegans-abstain-from-honey/151574/38 "2003-01-30T20:14:31Z")
originaly by: **bup** > [@](#): > > BURNER: > “Asparagus and broccoli have rudimentary nervouse systems similar to an amoebas nervouse system. So even though they dont react they can still feel pain.” > > Cite? linky, linky–\> [http://www.theosophy-nw.org/theosnw/brother/br-jvmj2.htm](http://www.theosophy-nw.org/theosnw/brother/br-jvmj2.htm) Here is a quote from the article: > [@](#): > > \*\*“In the plant it is that vital and intelligent Force which informs the seed and develops it into the blade of grass, or the root and sapling” (H. P. Blavatsky, The Secret Doctrine, Private Commentary, 1:291) > > Darwin even considered the threadlike roots a kind of brain that searches and burrows downward into the soil. There is the suggestion here of a consciousness diffused throughout the whole plant, focused in its most vital parts such as the shoots or root tips, leaves, and especially the flowers. > > The great Bengali scientist, Sir Jagadis Chundra Bose, conducted fascinating experiments with plants nearly a hundred years ago. Dr. Bose combined physiology, physics, and biology in his research and discovered universal relationships. He devised a way for a plant, by reacting to electrical and other stimuli, to “write” its signature on a piece of smoked glass. He observed that the sensitive mimosa has a reflex arc like an animal, and a type of nervous system of its own corresponding to certain cells. He also found that in the cortex tissue of the growing layer plants have pulsing heart cells that help pump the sap up through the stem. Among his many experiments he noted that the carrot was the most excitable of vegetables, and celery one of the least. Bose quotes the following from Henri Bergson: > > . . . _it by no means follows that a brain is indispensable to consciousness. . . . If then, at the top of the scale of living beings, consciousness is attached to very complicated nervous centres, must we not suppose that it accompanies the nervous system down its whole descent, and that when at last the nerve stuff is merged in the yet undifferentiated living matter, consciousness is still there, diffused, confused, but not reduced to nothing? Theoretically, then, everything living might be conscious. In principle, consciousness is co-extensive with life._ – Mind-Energy, Lectures and Essays, pp. 7-8; quoted in Plant Autographs and Their Relationships, “Response of Inorganic Matter,” ch. viii. > Bose went even further in his experiments showing us new interrelationships between the “living” and “non-living” that are not yet fully recognized, and that consciousness is in all matter. His experiments primarily reveal a plant awareness very sensitive to other types of electromagnetic frequencies or waves besides those of visible light. > > In the early 1950s Dr. T. C. Singh, head botanist of the Annamalai University, India, discovered that the hydrilla, a water plant, reacted to Indian ragas played on violin, flute, and vina. Further experiments with various pitches of sound caused certain plants greatly to increase their yields. Around the world this research continued in the '60s and ’ 70s with mixed results. Plants responded to most kinds of music or sound, to magnetic and electric fields or current, all of which favored growth under certain conditions. It was discovered that jazz and classical music in general gave better results than hard rock, which produced an adverse effect. > > Cleve Backster used a polygraph (lie-detector) to test plants, attaching electrodes to the leaves. By recording electrical impulses he found the plants to be extremely sensitive to his thoughts, particularly thoughts that threatened their well-being. Backster also observed a reaction in a plant when even the smallest cells were killed near it. He noted that they have a kind of memory, reacting to someone who earlier had done harm to another plant nearby: in a line-up of anonymous people the plant could pick out the one who had performed the act. > > Marcel Vogel, a contemporary, performed most of Backster’s experiments successfully. He came to an interesting conclusion: that there is a life force, a cosmic energy surrounding living things, shared by all kingdoms including the human. He said: > > this oneness is what makes possible a mutual sensitivity allowing plant and man not only to intercommunicate, but to record these communications via the plant on a recording chart. – The Secret Life of Plants, p. 24\*\* ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2003, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-hardcore-vegans-abstain-from-honey/151574/39 "2003-01-30T20:24:37Z")
Cleve Backster and plant cognition. There’s been a lot written debunking his work – here’s one site: [http://skepdic.com/plants.html](http://skepdic.com/plants.html) Try George Abell’s book **Science and the Paranormal** for a whole chapter on this. ---
**Author:** ![jackelope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a6a055/32.png) [@jackelope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jackelope)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2003, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-hardcore-vegans-abstain-from-honey/151574/40 "2003-01-30T20:35:49Z")
Quoth Jack Handey: “If trees could scream, would we be so cavalier about cutting them down? We might, if they screamed all the time, for no good reason.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-hardcore-vegans-abstain-from-honey/151574.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-hardcore-vegans-abstain-from-honey/151574.md?page=3)