# Do "hardened schools" prevent mass shootings? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 22, 2018, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-hardened-schools-prevent-mass-shootings/814617 "2018-05-22T13:26:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Ashtura](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ashtura/32/2963_2.png) [@Ashtura](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ashtura)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2018, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-hardened-schools-prevent-mass-shootings/814617/1 "2018-05-22T13:26:36Z")
I would like to know if there’s any school shooting statistics on “hardened schools”. For the purpose of the discussion I’m going to include the following measures. 1. Multiple armed LEOs onsite at all times 2. All unlocked entrances utilizing metal detectors If there are other common shooting counter measures, I may add them. Have there been mass shootings at schools that have taken these precautions? ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2018, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-hardened-schools-prevent-mass-shootings/814617/2 "2018-05-22T13:37:37Z")
Maybe it’s just my outlook on the subject but, when we’ve reached the point where we have to hide our own children inside fortresses to protect them from the obviously out of control proliferation of deadly weapons that permeate our ever increasingly violent society, it just might be time to make some fundamental changes. Right now, we are much more like Liberia than we are like Sweden, and there’s something very wrong with that. ---
**Author:** ![DCnDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dcndc/32/2842_2.png) [@DCnDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DCnDC)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2018, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-hardened-schools-prevent-mass-shootings/814617/3 "2018-05-22T13:42:26Z")
My old high school has security doors at the end of every hallway and everyone is issued an ID badge. Without a badge you can only enter through the main entrance, and once inside you still can’t get past the foyer without passing through the front office. (full disclosure: I didn’t actually attend this school, I graduated from the old building that had none of these security measures) ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2018, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-hardened-schools-prevent-mass-shootings/814617/4 "2018-05-22T13:43:22Z")
I don’t think there are any such statistics. I doubt there could ever be any, since it would really be attempting to prove a negative. How do you know “hardening” worked if there are no attempts? 99.7% of schools in this country don’t have shootings _now_. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2018, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-hardened-schools-prevent-mass-shootings/814617/5 "2018-05-22T13:50:30Z")
Yes I too worry about the harmful long term effects it has on the children to basically attend what I would term a prison school, and the long term effects on society if it was done ‘en-masse’. I would think that use of high technology may be a way of accomplishing the goal of the OP with keeping a more open format. ---
**Author:** ![Lamoral](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lamoral/32/16078_2.png) [@Lamoral](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamoral)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2018, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-hardened-schools-prevent-mass-shootings/814617/6 "2018-05-22T14:25:53Z")
> [@Jasmine](#): > > Right now, we are much more like Liberia than we are like Sweden, and there’s something very wrong with that. 1. No, we’re really not. This is overblown hyperbole. 2. A Scandinavian monoculture will never be comparable to the US. ---
**Author:** ![Ashtura](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ashtura/32/2963_2.png) [@Ashtura](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ashtura)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2018, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-hardened-schools-prevent-mass-shootings/814617/7 "2018-05-22T14:52:07Z")
> [@Jasmine](#): > > Maybe it’s just my outlook on the subject but, when we’ve reached the point where we have to hide our own children inside fortresses to protect them from the obviously out of control proliferation of deadly weapons that permeate our ever increasingly violent society, it just might be time to make some fundamental changes. Right now, we are much more like Liberia than we are like Sweden, and there’s something very wrong with that. That’s fine. But you would agree we need to put a curb on this sooner rather than later, right? What proposal do you have to get rid of the “deadly weapons” that doesn’t require super majorities in Congress, two-thirds in both the House and the Senate, and ratified by 38 states? Recall the texas shooting was accomplished with a common shotgun and revolver, so we’re pretty much gonna have to get rid of all of 'em to really put a damper school shootings. How do you propose to to decrease a the violence in our society? (and I’m not really sure that’s the case, I believe violent crime has gone down steadily since the 1990’s). And, obviously, I’m not proposing hardening schools, if that won’t work either. That’s why I would like to see statistics. But it won’t take passing a constitutional amendment to do that. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2018, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-hardened-schools-prevent-mass-shootings/814617/8 "2018-05-22T14:57:18Z")
> [@Jacquernagy](#): > > A Scandinavian monoculture will never be comparable to the US. Yep: it’s multiculturalism that’s to blame for (usually) young white men doing this ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2018, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-hardened-schools-prevent-mass-shootings/814617/9 "2018-05-22T15:21:27Z")
> [@Jacquernagy](#): > > 1. No, we’re really not. This is overblown hyperbole. > > 2. A Scandinavian monoculture will never be comparable to the US. We’re a mono culture here too. We’re all Americans. Problem is some Americans view other Americans as not really American. That’s our problem as a society to figure out, and its not unsolvable just because we don’t all look the same. I think if you went to Sweden you’d find all kinds of people there as well. Regardless of whether a lot of them happen to have light skin and blonde hair. ---
**Author:** ![Lamoral](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lamoral/32/16078_2.png) [@Lamoral](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamoral)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2018, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-hardened-schools-prevent-mass-shootings/814617/10 "2018-05-22T15:53:44Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > Yep: it’s multiculturalism that’s to blame for (usually) young white men doing this That’s not what I’m saying. Canada is similar to the US, and also doesn’t have these kind of shootings. Canada is not a monoculture at all. It’s very multicultural. Never heard of an incident like these in Canada. The US is not like Sweden. It’s not like Japan. It’s not like any of the places that American utopians try to compare it to. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2018, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-hardened-schools-prevent-mass-shootings/814617/11 "2018-05-22T15:59:35Z")
So this uniquely American problem is something that we just can’t solve? It exists just because of who we are, and we are powerless? I have to believe that we can be better than this. I have to believe that we can find a way to stop our kids from getting massacred. If not then we are a broken society, and I don’t see how we can have any hope for our future. Our kids _are_ our future and they are growing up assuming that they will be shot one day. Not afraid that it might happen, assuming that it will happen. I’m afraid the future will not judge us kindly. Hell the present seems to be judging us pretty harshly right now and I can’t really disagree. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2018, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-hardened-schools-prevent-mass-shootings/814617/12 "2018-05-22T16:02:44Z")
“We’ve tried literally nothing and we’re out of ideas.” ---
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2018, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-hardened-schools-prevent-mass-shootings/814617/13 "2018-05-22T16:58:35Z")
> [@Ashtura](#): > > I would like to know if there’s any school shooting statistics on “hardened schools”. For the purpose of the discussion I’m going to include the following measures. > > 1. Multiple armed LEOs onsite at all times > 2. All unlocked entrances utilizing metal detectors > > If there are other common shooting counter measures, I may add them. Have there been mass shootings at schools that have taken these precautions? Well…the recent shooting in Santa Fe was at a school with [multiple armed LEO](https://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Ten-killed-in-Texas-high-school-shooting-were-12927827.php) onsite. And Adam Lanza confronted a [locked](https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/sandy-hook-gunman-adam-lanza-shot-his-way-through-school-door-fc3bfjr5qlk) elementary school in Newtown. He had to blast his way in. ---
**Author:** ![DavidwithanR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3bc359/32.png) [@DavidwithanR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidwithanR)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2018, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-hardened-schools-prevent-mass-shootings/814617/14 "2018-05-22T17:09:32Z")
> [@Ashtura](#): > > That’s fine. But you would agree we need to put a curb on this sooner rather than later, right? > > What proposal do you have to get rid of the “deadly weapons” that doesn’t require super majorities in Congress, two-thirds in both the House and the Senate, and ratified by 38 states? I believe that the only viable proposal is exactly the one that requires the super-majorities and the multi-state approval. I think it’s time to stop tinkering with distractions and get on with it. The United States has a harmful and stupid law enshrined in its constitution, that law is the problem, and the sooner it’s repealed the better. ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2018, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-hardened-schools-prevent-mass-shootings/814617/15 "2018-05-22T17:19:24Z")
> [@Ashtura](#): > > I would like to know if there’s any school shooting statistics on “hardened schools”. For the purpose of the discussion I’m going to include the following measures. > > 1. Multiple armed LEOs onsite at all times > 2. All unlocked entrances utilizing metal detectors > > If there are other common shooting counter measures, I may add them. Have there been mass shootings at schools that have taken these precautions? It’s hard to get such statistics, since (as far as I know) only the US uses these precautions. It certainly sounds expensive to have many armed guards and metal detectors at every school. (As is well-known, other countries have gun control and have far less school shootings.) ---
**Author:** ![Ashtura](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ashtura/32/2963_2.png) [@Ashtura](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ashtura)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2018, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-hardened-schools-prevent-mass-shootings/814617/16 "2018-05-22T17:23:32Z")
> [@glee](#): > > It’s hard to get such statistics, since (as far as I know) only the US uses these precautions. > It certainly sounds expensive to have many armed guards and metal detectors at every school. > > (As is well-known, other countries have gun control and have far less school shootings.) Let’s skip the “other countries” stuff, unless the other countries have the equivalent of a second amendment, with the same difficulty of repeal process. We can compare to other countries all day long, but that isn’t going wave away the 2A, which, I think most people realize isn’t going away anytime soon, ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2018, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-hardened-schools-prevent-mass-shootings/814617/17 "2018-05-22T17:28:49Z")
> [@Jacquernagy](#): > > That’s not what I’m saying. > > Canada is similar to the US, and also doesn’t have these kind of shootings. Canada is not a monoculture at all. It’s very multicultural. Never heard of an incident like these in Canada. > > The US is not like Sweden. It’s not like Japan. It’s not like any of the places that American utopians try to compare it to. [Ecole Polytechnique Massacre](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89cole_Polytechnique_massacre). Granted, that was nearly thirty years ago. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2018, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-hardened-schools-prevent-mass-shootings/814617/18 "2018-05-22T17:28:50Z")
So the power to stop this seems to be only in the hands of gun owners and the NRA? If the rest of us are powerless, it must therefore fall on them. In which case it seems our kids are screwed and we have collectively failed them. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2018, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-hardened-schools-prevent-mass-shootings/814617/19 "2018-05-22T17:32:57Z")
> [@Ashtura](#): > > that isn’t going wave away the 2A, which, I think most people realize isn’t going away anytime soon, It won’t if we don’t try, no. But the 2A, or rather result-driven and ahistorical misinterpretations of it, really is at the source of this malignancy in our society. Curing it really does require excision of its source. ---
**Author:** ![Sunny\_Daze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunny_daze/32/438_2.png) [@Sunny\_Daze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunny_Daze)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2018, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-hardened-schools-prevent-mass-shootings/814617/20 "2018-05-22T17:48:26Z")
First I want to stipulate that most schools have not experienced a mass shooting. This means that any data available from schools that have security measures in place like those described by the OP are very hard to extrapolate to other schools. With that in mind, there are two districts in the country that have these measures in place at some of their schools. The 2 largest school districts, LAUSD (Los Angeles) and NYS (New York) both have these measures in place at school in neighborhoods with high levels of violence. [This article](https://www.campussafetymagazine.com/safety/metal-detectors-in-schools/) gives a very high level overview of the what’s involved in the system: costs, personnel, new risks associated with the system. I don’t think we can say that this system foils mass shooters, because the vast majority of schools don’t have those incidents. It’s impossible to conclude that this system has prevented anything. Perpetrators like Adam Lanza illustrate that it’s possible to simply walk through security, particularly with the right weapons. One could imagine a scenario where a shooter simply shot the line of students waiting to get inside. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-hardened-schools-prevent-mass-shootings/814617.md?page=2)