# Do "hardened schools" prevent mass shootings? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 22, 2018, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-hardened-schools-prevent-mass-shootings/814617 "2018-05-22T13:26:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Grestarian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grestarian/32/3227_2.png) [@Grestarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grestarian)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2018, 6:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-hardened-schools-prevent-mass-shootings/814617/201 "2018-05-25T06:37:01Z")
I’m an avid gun-owner AND strongly in favor of draconian gun control laws. I’ll just add a couple extra comments in response to Dangerosa’s and Dr. Deth’s suggestions… > [@Dangerosa](#): > > 1. A national gun ownership database > 2. Requirements on owners to carry insurance > 3. Liability if your gun is used in a crime (hence the insurance) > 4. Transfer requirements regarding guns similar to what we have with cars > 5. Serialized and registered ammunition - so you can track who bought the bullets > All possible and constitutional. > [@DrDeth](#): > > 1. Useless. Criminals dont have to register their guns. One of the reasons the 2a die-hards argue against this is because gun registration was used against the general populace in (relatively) recent history. It’s also the reason they invariably sing “If guns are criminalized, only criminals will have guns.” The example is right next door – southward instead of north. My brother-in-law revealed a bit of Mexican history to me: There was mandatory gun registration and then, at some point, the government used those registries to go around and collect the guns from non-LEO/Non-military people. Then it made private gun ownership illegal for non-LEO/Non-military people.\* Now, the only civillians with guns in Mexico are connected to drug cartels. > [@DrDeth](#): > > 1. A new idea to put burdens on law abiding gun owners, since criminals dont usually buy their guns from gunstores. They procure them illegally, so they wouldnt have insurance. I let my insurer know I own a gun. My agent told me it didn’t affect my rates, but loss would be covered like any other object in the house and any injury from it (or its projected lead slugs) on the property would be covered like any other accident liability. If the matter wasn’t an accident…well, such matters would be dealt with (if necessary) according to routine insurance procedures, as well. In other words I already have liability coverage in case someone is injured by (bullet(s) from) my gun. It costs me nothing extra. > [@DrDeth](#): > > 1. Already in force in CA and other states, and has done nothing. One of the reasons we’re required to notify police if a gun is stolen/lost is so they can affix a date to that loss. If it turns out your stolen/lost gun is used after that date, you can be considered less-of-a-suspect in the crime. 🙂 California also has laws making a minor’s use of a gun reflect on the gun owner. I don’t believe it has actually been invoked, probably since the owner has (usually? always?) been the parent of the subsequently-deceased gun-using child. > [@DrDeth](#): > > 1. Useless and expensive. I must admit I’ve never looked into the laws outside of California. Here on the (majority of the) left coast, all exchanges or sales of firearms must be handled through a Federally-Licensed Firearms dealer, who records the names and ID’s of the seller and the buyer and charges a fee. One can even call around and find the lowest transaction fee to arrange for transfers to be recorded as cheap as possible. I remember reading an article in which a gun store owner was complaining that the annual records audit by the ATF took a whole weekend, during which he had to keep his shop closed because he couldn’t [COLOR=navy]do any transfers and wasn’t willing to focus on anything else (lest it take even longer). The article then revealed that the process is such a pain in the ass because the NRA insists that the records-of-transfer cannot be computerized. See #1, above, for their reasons. [/COLOR] > [@DrDeth](#): > > I have {suggested} several times here: A) increasing age to 21, B) banning bump stocks and C) banning the sale of extended magazines. A) Changing the purchasing age will have little effect on the number of guns already in homes. In fact, the kids shooting up schools seem to be using guns owned by their parents and acquired without permission (see #3 above) B) [COLOR=navy]Even the NRA has thrown its hallowed opinion against bump-stocks. Maybe it will become illegal to sell them but, now that the idea is out there, home-made versions can’t be stopped. [Like modifying S/B/A switches on military replica rifles]. C) Magazine capacity really isn’t much of an issue. Somewhere around here is a thread in which I brag about my ability to speed-swap my magazines without breaking rhythm; it’s not hard to learn/practice and analysts were saying the Columbine kids were doing it twenty years ago.[/COLOR] > [@Scumpup](#): > > TLDR: Don’t overestimate the competency of the average cop. Wow! Umm…rather harshly illuminating review of LEOs, Scumpup. Thank you for the education, even though it kinda squished my ‘hero worship’ of law enforcers. Ignorance fought! Lastly, “gun lethality” is actually more a matter of the person shooting rather than the gun itself. You might understand that a bigger bullet would inherently kick the gun harder. For most people that would intuitively mean a gun using a smaller bullet# – a .22 or a .25, for instance, would be ‘less deadly.’ For most people, though, a lighter kick means greater accuracy. So is it the heavier bullet capacity or the greater accuracy which is more lethal?# And, for me and probably a lot of other enthusiasts, there’s an irony in that I shoot more accurately with a .45 than with a .40 or .38 handgun so I, in particular, am more lethal with the bigger slug – which confirms the intuition but is counter to what most knowledgable shooters understand about basic handgunning. —G! \*This law had some news- and entertainment-generating effects on the career of _DOG the Bounty Hunter_, who was noticed by producers and signed on to a TV show after he went down to Mexico – with guns – to hunt for the famous Max Factor Serial Rapist/Killer and drag him back to U.S. soil. #And the really knowledgable gun users can take the discussions of .45 vs 9mm and .223 vs .308 vs 7.62mm vs 5.56mm to completely different boards where such things are not beyond the understanding of the majority of participants. Yeah, I’ve read and watched and contemplated and I have my own opinions, but all of that is a major tangent to this particular thread. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2018, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-hardened-schools-prevent-mass-shootings/814617/202 "2018-05-25T06:56:45Z")
> [@Grestarian](#): > > Wow! > Umm…rather harshly illuminating review of LEOs, Scumpup. Thank you for the education, even though it kinda squished my ‘hero worship’ of law enforcers. Ignorance fought! Back during the Christopher Dorner manhunt, 8 LAPD cops looking for a black Nissan truck instead shot 103 times at a blue Toyota with 2 women inside. One hundred and three shots at a stationary target. One woman took two of those bullets, the other was harmed by broken glass only and thankfully neither was killed. Never overestimate the competency of “professionals”. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2018, 8:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-hardened-schools-prevent-mass-shootings/814617/203 "2018-05-25T08:57:16Z")
> [@Ashtura](#): > > 1. Multiple armed LEOs onsite at all times I don’t know about the whole ‘hardened’ thing but just last week an armed guard did stop a shooter. > **[School Resource Officer Stopped School Shooting, Authorities Say (Published...](https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/17/us/dixon-school-shooting.html)** > > A police officer in Dixon, Ill., shot a gunman near a high school before anyone else was harmed. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2018, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-hardened-schools-prevent-mass-shootings/814617/204 "2018-05-25T12:30:43Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > They do, and the article doesnt not refute me. Yes, many records are kept at the gun store- for the use of the ATF. So you are actually saying that “A gun store keeps records” is the exact same as “The ATF keeps records”? That’s what you are going with? ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2018, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-hardened-schools-prevent-mass-shootings/814617/205 "2018-05-25T12:32:28Z")
This is America’s 2nd (get it?) civil war. Ima let you use that. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2018, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-hardened-schools-prevent-mass-shootings/814617/206 "2018-05-25T12:34:55Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Did he have a criminal record before his shooting spree? Obviously he commited a crime, but he was in no way a professional criminal. It’s amusing to me how far you will go to say a guy that shot and killed people is not a criminal. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2018, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-hardened-schools-prevent-mass-shootings/814617/207 "2018-05-25T16:39:24Z")
> [@Isamu](#): > > I would be happy for the gun folk to write that list themselves. But you’re too afraid of what might happen, so you claim “slippery slope” to almost everything. And nothing meaningful gets done. Look at what New York does to completely innocent travelers whose airplane happens to get _forced down_ into NY- they arrest any people traveling totally legally with guns (from other state to another state, not NY) and confiscate the guns. In DC it’s a crime if you have a \*spent \*cartridge. In CA they passed a law that said when it became feasible to have guns which put a signature on fired shells, new guns would have to have that feature. our then AG, Now Senator found that a guy did put out a patent for such a feature and released that patent. Now, it’s still not technically feasible and no gun company offers it, but you now can’t buy any newly designed guns in CA. So, since the gun grabbers will turn anything they have into the old slippery slope- yes, Indeed, gun owners are wary. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2018, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-hardened-schools-prevent-mass-shootings/814617/208 "2018-05-25T16:43:22Z")
> [@Grestarian](#): > > [COLOR=navy]I let my insurer know I own a gun. My agent told me it didn’t affect my rates, but loss would be covered like any other object in the house and any injury from it (or its projected lead slugs) on the property would be covered like any other accident liability. If the matter wasn’t an accident…well, such matters would be dealt with (if necessary) according to routine insurance procedures, as well. In other words I already have liability coverage in case someone is injured by (bullet(s) from) my gun. It costs me nothing extra. > [/COLOR] That’s not what they want. They want liability insurance on a gun even if you use it in a crime, or if it is stolen from you and used in a crime. No insurer has such insurance, and a rough pulled from a ass estimate was $200 a year per gun. In other words, they want it to be too expensive for law abiding gun owners to own firearms, by requiring a insurance that is not available and would do nothing since criminals do not buy their guns legally from gun stores. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2018, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-hardened-schools-prevent-mass-shootings/814617/209 "2018-05-25T16:45:46Z")
It would obviously become available if it were required, or if homeowner’s and renter’s policies did not already cover it. So, straw. What an outrage it is that law-abiding drivers are required to buy liability insurance! They’re trying to outlaw driving! Please. > [@DrDeth](#): > > Look at what New York does to completely innocent travelers whose airplane happens to get _forced down_ into NY- they arrest any people traveling totally legally with guns (from other state to another state, not NY) and confiscate the guns. Got a cite for that happening? > [@](#): > > In DC it’s a crime if you have a \*spent \*cartridge. Or that? And why are you carrying spent cartridges with you anyway? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2018, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-hardened-schools-prevent-mass-shootings/814617/210 "2018-05-25T16:46:01Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > So you are actually saying that “A gun store keeps records” is the exact same as “The ATF keeps records”? > > That’s what you are going with? The Gun store keeps the records FOR the ATF. The records are the property of the ATF. If a gun is used in a crime, the ATF can find out from the manufacturer which gun store it was shipped to, then require that store to report back on who bought it. However, since criminals- by and large- don’t buy their guns legally from gun store- it’s usually a useless task. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2018, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-hardened-schools-prevent-mass-shootings/814617/211 "2018-05-25T16:47:20Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > In CA they passed a law that said when it became feasible to have guns which put a signature on fired shells, new guns would have to have that feature. our then AG, Now Senator found that a guy did put out a patent for such a feature and released that patent. Now, it’s still not technically feasible and no gun company offers it, but you now can’t buy any newly designed guns in CA. > > So, since the gun grabbers will turn anything they have into the old slippery slope- yes, Indeed, gun owners are wary. There are 805 models of gun approved for sale in California. Slippery slope indeed :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2018, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-hardened-schools-prevent-mass-shootings/814617/212 "2018-05-25T16:47:32Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > It’s amusing to me how far you will go to say a guy that shot and killed people is not a criminal. Of course he’s a criminal, but he wasn’t a _professional_ criminal. He had no record before the shooting.:rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2018, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-hardened-schools-prevent-mass-shootings/814617/213 "2018-05-25T16:51:46Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > There are 805 models of gun approved for sale in California. Slippery slope indeed :rolleyes: So? Newer safer guns are not approved, and many of those models are no longer manufactured as they are older versions or that company went defunct. It’s like saying CA allows the sale of any car models made before 2013. Gosh there are thousands of them. Hudsons, Studebakers, Packards, Pontiacs, Saturns… ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2018, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-hardened-schools-prevent-mass-shootings/814617/214 "2018-05-25T16:57:04Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > The Gun store keeps the records FOR the ATF. The records are the property of the ATF. > > If a gun is used in a crime, the ATF can find out from the manufacturer which gun store it was shipped to, then require that store to report back on who bought it. > > However, since criminals- by and large- don’t buy their guns legally from gun store- it’s usually a useless task. If the records are the property of the ATF, then why don’t they just collect them when a gun is purchased? The Las Vegas shooter is a criminal, and he purchased his guns legally from a store. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2018, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-hardened-schools-prevent-mass-shootings/814617/215 "2018-05-25T16:57:52Z")
That’s a big market. If the demand is there, at some point the supply will be, too. Econ 101. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2018, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-hardened-schools-prevent-mass-shootings/814617/216 "2018-05-25T16:58:37Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Of course he’s a criminal, but he wasn’t a _professional_ criminal. He had no record before the shooting.:rolleyes: Sorry, you said criminals don’t buy weapons at a gun store. The LV shooter is a criminal, he bought his guns at a gun store. You are incorrect. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2018, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-hardened-schools-prevent-mass-shootings/814617/217 "2018-05-25T17:00:45Z")
If the point is that a real background check system would prevent some people with convictions on their records from buying guns, well, duh. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2018, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-hardened-schools-prevent-mass-shootings/814617/218 "2018-05-25T17:01:25Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > So? Newer safer guns are not approved, and many of those models are no longer manufactured as they are older versions or that company went defunct. > > It’s like saying CA allows the sale of any car models made before 2013. Gosh there are thousands of them. Hudsons, Studebakers, Packards, Pontiacs, Saturns… So? Safer guns? What, they don’t fire bullets? You can buy any amount you want from a selection of 809 models of guns. Sorry, this is not my definition of limiting gun rights. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2018, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-hardened-schools-prevent-mass-shootings/814617/219 "2018-05-25T17:04:52Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Sorry, you said criminals don’t buy weapons at a gun store. The LV shooter is a criminal, he bought his guns at a gun store. > > You are incorrect. Dont be pedantic. :rolleyes:We were talking about professional criminals and if you are going to be pedantic- the LV shooter wasnt a criminal before he bought his guns, thus indeed- criminals dont buy their guns from gun stores. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2018, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-hardened-schools-prevent-mass-shootings/814617/220 "2018-05-25T17:06:20Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > So? Safer guns? What, they don’t fire bullets? > > You can buy any amount you want from a selection of 809 models of guns. Sorry, this is not my definition of limiting gun rights. They might have a device that prevents any but the owner from firing it. You can go to any car dealer in CA and buy any car made before 2013. :rolleyes: [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-hardened-schools-prevent-mass-shootings/814617.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-hardened-schools-prevent-mass-shootings/814617.md?page=12)