# Do "hardened schools" prevent mass shootings? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 22, 2018, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-hardened-schools-prevent-mass-shootings/814617 "2018-05-22T13:26:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2018, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-hardened-schools-prevent-mass-shootings/814617/301 "2018-05-30T01:32:51Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Here was your challenge: > Now you know. FTR, I challenged _you_ to provide a cite. You never did, big guy. The cite somebody else provided may or may not be of value. It gives a number without context ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2018, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-hardened-schools-prevent-mass-shootings/814617/302 "2018-05-30T05:54:39Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > The broader, and truer, explanation is that we haven’t fucking tried it yet. Everywhere else, experience is that it does indeed work. > > “It doesn’t work” is the common avoidance excuse from YOUR side. DC, Chicago, NYC- yes, we have tried it, and it didnt work. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2018, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-hardened-schools-prevent-mass-shootings/814617/303 "2018-05-30T05:57:17Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Here was your challenge: > Now you know. I will concede a “significant” amount. But we really dont know, and since the “firearms seized by Mexican authorities that were also submitted to U.S. authorities for tracing.” were guns that the Mexican authorities thought might originate in the uSA, we dont know how many. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2018, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-hardened-schools-prevent-mass-shootings/814617/304 "2018-05-30T12:24:11Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > FTR, I challenged _you_ to provide a cite. You never did, big guy. Post 294. :rolleyes: > [@DrDeth](#): > > DC, Chicago, NYC- yes, we have tried it, and it didnt work. I think you know why. It’s been explained enough. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2018, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-hardened-schools-prevent-mass-shootings/814617/305 "2018-05-30T12:31:36Z")
> [@Isamu](#): > > The US never experienced tyranny, just a few taxes. Which the US itself does to people today. Yes, taxation without representation. Done by the US. The impetus for calling the Constitutional Convention was mainly the headaches that We The People faced in quelling Shays’ Rebellion under the Articles of Confederation system. Those guys, although they did have a legitimate point or two, were still a bunch of disaffected yahoos who went for their shooting irons instead of their votes and their representation, wanting to overthrow or at least nullify the democratic republic that was passing laws they didn’t like, “tyrannically”. Sound familiar? The Convention created the power for the new national government to suppress insurrections like Shays’, using explicitly-created militias at first and later with a standing army and standing police forces. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2018, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-hardened-schools-prevent-mass-shootings/814617/306 "2018-05-30T12:34:40Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > How many firearms were seized total? How many were not not submitted to the US authorities for tracing? How many were from the Mexican military or police? 104,850 sounds like a vast mountain of guns, to be sure, but there are more guns than that in the Pittsburgh area. All that article says is that the guns from the US that were submitted for tracing were from the US. It does nothing to put that number into any sort of context. From the same article: “U.S. police agencies have acknowledged firearms smuggling is fueling violent crime in Mexico.” I’m going to go with the GAO and US police agencies over an Internet poster who says “nuh uh!” sorry. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2018, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-hardened-schools-prevent-mass-shootings/814617/307 "2018-05-30T13:29:44Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > From the same article: “U.S. police agencies have acknowledged firearms smuggling is fueling violent crime in Mexico.” Another nebulous statement that isn’t even a direct quote of anything said by anybody representing US LE. The article has little substance. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2018, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-hardened-schools-prevent-mass-shootings/814617/308 "2018-05-30T13:51:09Z")
Again, GAO report or anonymous Internet poster…hmmmmm…gotta go with GAO again. Nice try though! ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2018, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-hardened-schools-prevent-mass-shootings/814617/309 "2018-05-30T13:52:47Z")
On a more serious note, what’s the deal with you anyway? You simply don’t believe that a lot of guns are obtained in the US and smuggled into Mexico, or what? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2018, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-hardened-schools-prevent-mass-shootings/814617/310 "2018-05-30T13:58:44Z")
The \*\*DrDeth \*\*logic would be that Mexico’s gun control laws just don’t work. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2018, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-hardened-schools-prevent-mass-shootings/814617/311 "2018-05-30T15:49:52Z")
> [@SamuelA](#): > > Hardened schools are like “The Club” for automobiles. “The Club” does little to stop car theft. And a determined thief can defeat it. But if the owner of a common model of car uses The Club, and there are other instances of that exact car parked near each other, any thief is probably going to just go steal the easier to steal car. > > Similarly, would be mass shooters probably do scout their targets. If they see a school is locked down like a prison with a million dollars of hardening upgrades, why not just go shoot up the school that isn’t that well protected? > > Eventually, maybe all schools will be like fortresses but that will take a lot of time and money. Except most of the shootings are not random. They are because the shooter has a connection to the school. Which has the “advantage” to the shooter that they are able to scout it out, by going there for years, and find any and all weaknesses that are an inherent part of having fallible humans in charge of protection. Beyond that, they can wait until the beginning or end of the school day, while students are being channeled through the narrow constrictive security zones. And, even if your idea did work out, and people will just got shoot up the school that is least protected, it doesn’t solve school shootings, it just makes them happen in poorer communities that don’t have the money for a million dollars of hardening upgrades. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2018, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-hardened-schools-prevent-mass-shootings/814617/312 "2018-05-30T15:56:13Z")
What \*\*k9befriender \*\*said. School shootings aren’t like burglaries in which the burglar scans an array of targets and skips over the hardened ones, going for the vulnerable ones. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2018, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-hardened-schools-prevent-mass-shootings/814617/313 "2018-05-30T16:48:42Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > On a more serious note, what’s the deal with you anyway? You simply don’t believe that a lot of guns are obtained in the US and smuggled into Mexico, or what? All manner of stuff gets smuggled both ways, including guns. I have seen no convincing evidence that the violence in Mexico is, in any major degree, due to guns smuggled there from the US. Your article says it is, but gives nothing substantive to support the assertion. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2018, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-hardened-schools-prevent-mass-shootings/814617/314 "2018-05-30T16:57:06Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > All manner of stuff gets smuggled both ways, including guns. I have seen no convincing evidence that the violence in Mexico is, in any major degree, due to guns smuggled there from the US. Your article says it is, but gives nothing substantive to support the assertion. I’m sure you are right. The 10s of thousands of guns smuggled into Mexico have no effect on violence in Mexico. I don’t know what I was thinking, reading government reports and what-not. Thanks for setting me straight. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2018, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-hardened-schools-prevent-mass-shootings/814617/315 "2018-05-30T17:25:34Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > I’m sure you are right. The 10s of thousands of guns smuggled into Mexico have no effect on violence in Mexico. I don’t know what I was thinking, reading government reports and what-not. Thanks for setting me straight. Did I say it had no effect? Pretty sure I didn’t, chief. I am, however, of the opinion that if another gun never made it into Mexico from the US, the situation there would change only slightly. Mexico has a southern border and coastlines, too. They have corrupt, broke neighbors to their south. Replace the smuggled American commercial guns with smuggled Venezuelan AKs. Or Chinese-made military weapons, as they’ve been known to deal to the black market. Those thousands of American guns are not improving the situation in Mexico, but neither are they the linchpin of the violence. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2018, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-hardened-schools-prevent-mass-shootings/814617/316 "2018-05-30T17:29:21Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > Did I say it had no effect? Pretty sure I didn’t, chief. I am, however, of the opinion that if another gun never made it into Mexico from the US, the situation there would change only slightly. Mexico has a southern border and coastlines, too. They have corrupt, broke neighbors to their south. Replace the smuggled American commercial guns with smuggled Venezuelan AKs. Or Chinese-made military weapons, as they’ve been known to deal to the black market. Those thousands of American guns are not improving the situation in Mexico, but neither are they the linchpin of the violence. Whatever you say, sport. ---
**Author:** ![SamuelA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@SamuelA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SamuelA)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2018, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-hardened-schools-prevent-mass-shootings/814617/317 "2018-05-30T17:45:23Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > I’m sure you are right. The 10s of thousands of guns smuggled into Mexico have no effect on violence in Mexico. I don’t know what I was thinking, reading government reports and what-not. Thanks for setting me straight. Manson, the USA is not the only country where guns can be easily obtained. Black market deals to get older Russian military weapons are practically a cliche. And like Scumpup points out, there are many other trade routes into Mexico. So, yes, right now it is trivially easy to make straw purchases in the U.S. Anyone without felony convictions that are listed in the Federal database can just buy a gun over the counter at a Walmart. There is no requirement to account for the gun - cops can’t show up next week and expect you to still have it, it is totally legal to claim you sold it to another citizen of your same state and you no longer have their contact information. So yes, you can buy a few guns that are ideal for cartel violence. Maybe grab some scopes and body armor and extra magazines, so your Mexican friends can have a fighting chance. And then sell them for cash at a markup. It’s a crime that you would have to be a total moron (or the victim of a well set up sting) to even be caught committing. So they can find plenty of patsies to act as purchasing agents here in the U.S. However, if this could be shut down somehow - I don’t know how - then those crates of machine parts from Romania are an older, classic way to do this. Not to mention that some of the Russian weapons are anti-tank or anti-aircraft or actual machineguns, none of which are available over the counter here in the U.S. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2018, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-hardened-schools-prevent-mass-shootings/814617/318 "2018-05-30T17:58:43Z")
> [@SamuelA](#): > > However, if this could be shut down somehow - I don’t know how I think you could figure something out eventually. > [@](#): > > then those crates of machine parts from Romania are an older, classic way to do this. Not to mention that some of the Russian weapons are anti-tank or anti-aircraft or actual machineguns, none of which are available over the counter here in the U.S. Even without those things, they could just smuggle in some cars and swimming pools. So it’s hopeless. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2018, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-hardened-schools-prevent-mass-shootings/814617/319 "2018-05-30T17:59:30Z")
I’m not sure what you are trying to tell me here, but thanks for the info. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2018, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-hardened-schools-prevent-mass-shootings/814617/320 "2018-05-30T18:04:58Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > I’m not sure what you are trying to tell me here, but thanks for the info. What, exactly, do you see happening long term if you could wave your little magic wand with the star on it and end gun smuggling from US to Mexico this moment? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-hardened-schools-prevent-mass-shootings/814617.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-hardened-schools-prevent-mass-shootings/814617.md?page=17)