# Do "hardened schools" prevent mass shootings? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 22, 2018, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-hardened-schools-prevent-mass-shootings/814617 "2018-05-22T13:26:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 18
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2018, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-hardened-schools-prevent-mass-shootings/814617/341 "2018-05-30T21:04:11Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Then why the resistance to draconian measures to those who are assisting in getting guns into the hands of criminals? > > You are the one who suggested the death penalty for people moving guns into mexico, but suddenly balk when it may apply domestically as well? I offered a solution to the problem under discussion. You wanted to take it and immediately apply it to other issues. That’s antis in a nutshell. Never give them inch, or they want a hemisphere. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2018, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-hardened-schools-prevent-mass-shootings/814617/342 "2018-05-30T21:11:17Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > \ > > And they dont. Still nope. Try again, though. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2018, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-hardened-schools-prevent-mass-shootings/814617/343 "2018-05-30T21:19:40Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > I offered a solution to the problem under discussion. You wanted to take it and immediately apply it to other issues. What other issues? Smuggling guns? Getting guns into criminal’s hands? If you think it is enough of a crime to get guns into criminal hands in Mexico to call for the death penalty, why do you think that putting guns into the hands of criminals in the US should be considered more leniently? > [@](#): > > That’s antis in a nutshell. Never give them inch, or they want a hemisphere. And you shouldn’t put guns in the hands of strawmen either. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2018, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-hardened-schools-prevent-mass-shootings/814617/344 "2018-05-30T21:24:05Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > What other issues? Smuggling guns? Getting guns into criminal’s hands? > > If you think it is enough of a crime to get guns into criminal hands in Mexico to call for the death penalty, why do you think that putting guns into the hands of criminals in the US should be considered more leniently? > > And you shouldn’t put guns in the hands of strawmen either. You were all about guns into Mexico. I offered a very stern solution and asked if you would sign off. You took it and ran off with it into other, internal US, matters when the answer was a simple yes or no. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2018, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-hardened-schools-prevent-mass-shootings/814617/345 "2018-05-30T21:34:55Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > You were all about guns into Mexico. I offered a very stern solution and asked if you would sign off. You took it and ran off with it into other, internal US, matters when the answer was a simple yes or no. At least I understand why you don’t like dealing with anti’s, you don’t know how to negotiate with anyone at all. Your negotiation method is “Here is a solution, take it or leave it”, and that is a negotiation method that simply does not work. How about this? If you assist in getting guns into the hands of criminals, then that is a capital offense. Would you sign off on that? Simple yes or no. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2018, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-hardened-schools-prevent-mass-shootings/814617/346 "2018-05-30T21:35:41Z")
> [@SamuelA](#): > > Manson, the USA is not the only country where guns can be easily obtained. Black market deals to get older Russian military weapons are practically a cliche. And like Scumpup points out, there are many other trade routes into Mexico. So, yes, right now it is trivially easy to make straw purchases in the U.S. > > Anyone without felony convictions that are listed in the Federal database can just buy a gun over the counter at a Walmart. There is no requirement to account for the gun - cops can’t show up next week and expect you to still have it, it is totally legal to claim you sold it to another citizen of your same state and you no longer have their contact information. > > So yes, you can buy a few guns that are ideal for cartel violence. Maybe grab some scopes and body armor and extra magazines, so your Mexican friends can have a fighting chance. And then sell them for cash at a markup. It’s a crime that you would have to be a total moron (or the victim of a well set up sting) to even be caught committing. > > So they can find plenty of patsies to act as purchasing agents here in the U.S. > > However, if this could be shut down somehow - I don’t know how - then those crates of machine parts from Romania are an older, classic way to do this. Not to mention that some of the Russian weapons are anti-tank or anti-aircraft or actual machineguns, none of which are available over the counter here in the U.S. IN CA yes, they can show up and ask when and where you sold it. It hasnt done anything to reduce violent crime. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2018, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-hardened-schools-prevent-mass-shootings/814617/347 "2018-05-30T21:36:47Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Still nope. Try again, though. You have decided to stop debating honestly. I am done with you. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2018, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-hardened-schools-prevent-mass-shootings/814617/348 "2018-05-30T21:40:11Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > At least I understand why you don’t like dealing with anti’s, you don’t know how to negotiate with anyone at all. > > Your negotiation method is “Here is a solution, take it or leave it”, and that is a negotiation method that simply does not work. > > How about this? If you assist in getting guns into the hands of criminals, then that is a capital offense. Would you sign off on that? Simple yes or no. Be more specific. What kind of criminals are you talking about? How am I assisting? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2018, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-hardened-schools-prevent-mass-shootings/814617/349 "2018-05-30T21:51:52Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > IN CA yes, they can show up and ask when and where you sold it. It hasnt done anything to reduce violent crime. Right, because the guy who sold it can say “I sold it to some guy outside the gun shop, didn’t get a name.” > [@Scumpup](#): > > Be more specific. What kind of criminals are you talking about? How am I assisting? Is it not just a simple yes or no question, or are you admitting that the “solution” that you proposed earlier was not in good faith? What kind of criminals do you think? The kind that use guns to commit crimes. You are assisting by selling or giving the guns to people without performing necessary checks to make sure that they are not criminals, nor from out of state, before giving them access to the guns. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2018, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-hardened-schools-prevent-mass-shootings/814617/350 "2018-05-30T21:54:38Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Right, because the guy who sold it can say “I sold it to some guy outside the gun shop, didn’t get a name.” > > Is it not just a simple yes or no question, or are you admitting that the “solution” that you proposed earlier was not in good faith? > > What kind of criminals do you think? The kind that use guns to commit crimes. You are assisting by selling or giving the guns to people without performing necessary checks to make sure that they are not criminals, nor from out of state, before giving them access to the guns. Yeah…this is over. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2018, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-hardened-schools-prevent-mass-shootings/814617/351 "2018-05-30T22:06:17Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > Yeah…this is over. Yeah, I suppose it should be. With the way you guys are shifting the goal posts. You said > [@](#): > > You were all about guns into Mexico. I offered a very stern solution and asked if you would sign off. You took it and ran off with it into other, internal US, matters when the answer was a simple yes or no. I was never about guns in mexico, that was a distraction that DrDeth brought up, to divert the discussion from guns in the US. You then brought up what you claimed to be a solution, but it turns out that you only offered that as some sort of “gotcha” deal, exposed for such as when it was addressed to whether you would accept such a deal, you refused to answer “yes or no,” as you expected others to do, but instead started acting offended when asked the same question you asked of others. You say it is over, but in order for it to be over, it would have to have a beginning, where you would have had to at some point actually been arguing in good faith, and I’m not seeing that. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2018, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-hardened-schools-prevent-mass-shootings/814617/352 "2018-05-30T22:45:40Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > I was never about guns in mexico, that was a distraction that DrDeth brought up, to divert the discussion from guns in the US… Nope, I was responding to the usual distraction of how wonderful the (small subset) of the rest of the world is. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2018, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-hardened-schools-prevent-mass-shootings/814617/353 "2018-05-30T22:58:23Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Nope, I was responding to the usual distraction of how wonderful the (small subset) of the rest of the world is. You mean when you said this: > [@](#): > > Mexico has very strict gun control. Nah, you brought it up, as a distraction. Unless you were wanting to show how the strict Mexican gun control can be applied to the united states, the only reason that you brought it up was to divert the conversation from the talk of gun control in the United States. However, since you brought it up, it did parallel nicely, in that guns are flowing from a place with lax gun control, the USA, into a place with strict gun control, Mexico, similarly to how guns are flowing across state lines from states with lax gun control to states with stricter. If you were not meaning it as an analogy of that sort, then what type of good faith argument were you planning on launching from your statement? ---
**Author:** ![Magniankh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@Magniankh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magniankh)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2018, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-hardened-schools-prevent-mass-shootings/814617/354 "2018-05-30T23:12:41Z")
People who think revolution is impossible clearly do not study enough history. ---
**Author:** ![Lamoral](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lamoral/32/16078_2.png) [@Lamoral](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamoral)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2018, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-hardened-schools-prevent-mass-shootings/814617/355 "2018-05-30T23:29:03Z")
Revolution is unbelievably unlikely. I guess it’s _possible,_ but it’s still unlikely. Needing guns to protect yourself from other citizens in the event of a large-scale disaster that creates scarcity of food, water, heat, and refrigeration, is far more likely. Still _unlikely,_ yet…_far_ more likely. The military will be stretched very thin indeed in that kind of scenario. What if terrorists somehow detonated three “small” nuclear devices - one in downtown Los Angeles, one in Chicago, and one in the heart of Manhattan? I would not be surprised if the casualties from even one of those cities would strain the resources of the government (including the National Guard of every single state) to its breaking point, to say nothing of all three. And meanwhile, what’s happening in the rest of the country? What’s happening in Boston? What’s happening in San Francisco? What’s happening in Milwaukee? I have literally no fear whatsoever of the hypothetical “tyrannical government” whose spectre is perpetually raised by gun advocates…but I do have a fear of the scenario above. Not a huge fear, but enough that I’m glad I do have guns. ---
**Author:** ![Magniankh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@Magniankh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magniankh)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2018, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-hardened-schools-prevent-mass-shootings/814617/356 "2018-05-30T23:49:37Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Uh, no. :rolleyes: > > The government that is otherwise called We the People? The one we vote in, and can replace with something we like better just by calling another convention? That one? > > You can continue with this story all you want, but it won’t get you anywhere. I really recommend reading the entire Constitution sometime. > > We keep hearing that the 2A worshipers would BE the “violent revolution”. Who else do you see doing it? > > Who else is going to stop it? > > For someone who insists on independence from the NRA, you’re doing a fine job of parroting their party line. > > I think we’re done here. Good day. I’ve read a good deal of the Constitution, never the entire thing, granted. I’m not sure what you believe I would gleam from reading the entire document? No, I am not an NRA member. I have no reason to lie because that would not be in the interest of true, open debate, but it is your choice to believe what you want. I see anyone engaging in a revolution who has a more hopeful vision for the future, anyone who has nothing else to lose, or everything to gain. George Washington was called a “traitor,” but he will forever be America’s first President and one of the most shining examples of what a real patriot is. He was labeled a traitor on one side, and a revolutionary on the other side. Labels are interesting that way. Revolution is always on the basis of philosophy first, action second. We are in the midst of defining our revolution, holding dialogue about it. Actions will come later, actions explode from the introduction of catalysts – the Boston Massacre was a catalyst for the revolutionary war. Bankruptcy was a catalyst for the French revolution. Extreme oppressive social stratification was the catalyst for the Haitian revolution. This is how history is. Our voting system is not without flaws, corruption, and interference, please do not pretend that it is an altruistic final solution. It is naively idealistic to consider this current government “of the people,” this current government is a corporate plutocracy run by lobbying dollars and campaign money; if you can’t see that then my assumption would be that you are either extremely privileged or wishing to end the debate with ungrounded idealism rather than hard-hitting pragmatism. American capitalism fails when it no longer serves the majority and cannot offer a secure standard of living. When the system no longer serves the masses, the masses revolt. That is how history is. American capitalism is doing a fine job for arguing itself out of existence. ---
**Author:** ![Magniankh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@Magniankh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magniankh)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2018, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-hardened-schools-prevent-mass-shootings/814617/357 "2018-05-30T23:55:01Z")
> [@Jacquernagy](#): > > Revolution is unbelievably unlikely. I guess it’s _possible,_ but it’s still unlikely. > > Needing guns to protect yourself from other citizens in the event of a large-scale disaster that creates scarcity of food, water, heat, and refrigeration, is far more likely. Still _unlikely,_ yet…_far_ more likely. Yes, this is another scenario to consider, and like you said, more likely. The planet is significantly overpopulated relative to what our technology can support. There are many people out there watching the potable water levels…if a crisis ever hit and entire cities could no longer sustain their citizens, and mass waves of refugees move to parts of the country offering water, we will see violence break out. I would consider such an event a catalyst for revolution. Once more people _feel_ the effects of an incompetent government, then questions begin to be asked about why they are so incompetent, and why can’t we do better? ---
**Author:** ![Lamoral](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lamoral/32/16078_2.png) [@Lamoral](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamoral)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2018, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-hardened-schools-prevent-mass-shootings/814617/358 "2018-05-31T00:24:01Z")
Watch the brilliant and brutal BBC film “Threads” on the effects of a nuclear war. It is the _only_ film that comes close to capturing the reality of society coping with the effects of such an event in anything resembling realism. I’d expect no less from Cold War-era Britain. Pay attention in particular to the scenes in which refugees from rural areas are forcibly quartered in the flats of city-dwellers by police; and the riots over distribution of food. And that’s in a country with virtually no guns. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2018, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-hardened-schools-prevent-mass-shootings/814617/359 "2018-05-31T00:28:37Z")
> [@Magniankh](#): > > I’ve read a good deal of the Constitution, never the entire thing, granted. I’m not sure what you believe I would gleam from reading the entire document? > > No, I am not an NRA member. I have no reason to lie because that would not be in the interest of true, open debate, but it is your choice to believe what you want. > > I see anyone engaging in a revolution who has a more hopeful vision for the future, anyone who has nothing else to lose, or everything to gain. George Washington was called a “traitor,” but he will forever be America’s first President and one of the most shining examples of what a real patriot is. He was labeled a traitor on one side, and a revolutionary on the other side. Labels are interesting that way. > > Revolution is always on the basis of philosophy first, action second. We are in the midst of defining our revolution, holding dialogue about it. Actions will come later, actions explode from the introduction of catalysts – the Boston Massacre was a catalyst for the revolutionary war. Bankruptcy was a catalyst for the French revolution. Extreme oppressive social stratification was the catalyst for the Haitian revolution. This is how history is. > > Our voting system is not without flaws, corruption, and interference, please do not pretend that it is an altruistic final solution. It is naively idealistic to consider this current government “of the people,” this current government is a corporate plutocracy run by lobbying dollars and campaign money; if you can’t see that then my assumption would be that you are either extremely privileged or wishing to end the debate with ungrounded idealism rather than hard-hitting pragmatism. > > American capitalism fails when it no longer serves the majority and cannot offer a secure standard of living. When the system no longer serves the masses, the masses revolt. That is how history is. American capitalism is doing a fine job for arguing itself out of existence. Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![Lamoral](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lamoral/32/16078_2.png) [@Lamoral](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamoral)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2018, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-hardened-schools-prevent-mass-shootings/814617/360 "2018-05-31T00:28:54Z")
Again, I stress that this is _unlikely._ There was a time when I’d spend hours dwelling on this kind of shit…a very bad time indeed. Glory to God, I am no longer that guy anymore. But I’m still acknowledge the possibility. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-hardened-schools-prevent-mass-shootings/814617.md?page=17) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-hardened-schools-prevent-mass-shootings/814617.md?page=19)