# Do "hardened schools" prevent mass shootings? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 22, 2018, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-hardened-schools-prevent-mass-shootings/814617 "2018-05-22T13:26:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2018, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-hardened-schools-prevent-mass-shootings/814617/121 "2018-05-23T20:24:36Z")
We are open to all suggestions that aren’t stupid. Limiting doors in schools, blaming Ritalin, blaming video games, hardening every school in America (with what money?) - all stupid. Anything that is not stupid and actually has a chance of having an effect I am all ears for. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2018, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-hardened-schools-prevent-mass-shootings/814617/122 "2018-05-23T20:24:59Z")
It hasn’t been seriously discussed nationally yet, but don’t take comfort in that. All major societal changes start small, and can occur quickly when people start to realize it’s possible. Remember how quickly gay marriage went from inconceivable to generally accepted law? Meanwhile, you propose banning _doors_. > [@Shodan](#): > > “We can’t do anything until we repeal the 2nd” Who have you seen or heard claiming that? There are a \*lot \*of things we can do short of that, things the growing momentum of whose enactment would enable the removal of the primary obstacle. Some you’ve mentioned yourself, even. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2018, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-hardened-schools-prevent-mass-shootings/814617/123 "2018-05-23T20:32:38Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > We are open to all suggestions that aren’t stupid. Limiting doors in schools, blaming Ritalin, blaming video games, hardening every school in America (with what money?) - all stupid. > > Anything that is not stupid and actually has a chance of having an effect I am all ears for. What about flooding schools with even more guns in the hands of untrained teachers? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2018, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-hardened-schools-prevent-mass-shootings/814617/124 "2018-05-23T20:35:02Z")
> [@Railer13](#): > > Advocating ‘getting rid of the 2nd Ad’ is NOT advocating ‘banning all guns’. That’s a false equivalency. > > So you’re saying that as long as we have guns, there will be school shootings, correct? > > . Then what would you do if you did get rid of the 2nd? Yes. And murders. But even after we do get rid of all guns, there still will be school mass killings and murders. But maybe less. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2018, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-hardened-schools-prevent-mass-shootings/814617/125 "2018-05-23T20:39:12Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > What if we just want to go back to a time when there was one school shooting every several years, rather than several a year? This excluded middle absolutism thing you’ve got going on here doesn’t really impress. > > No I can’t. The people can. > > What reason do you think that we do not have a national requirement for background checks, then? > > A VERY vocal minority, then. And then of course, you are part of that very minority, as you say you would support a ban on large magazines, but you would think that it is stupid. No idea how to parse that. That would be nice, what do you suggest? I suggest reaching out to troubled kids. Because Congress doesnt want to over-ride the states, and really, it’s not a problem. Yes, in some states you can buy a gun from a 'eyes determinately shut" seller without a background check, but so far, none have been used in school shootings and not many are used in crimes. I said the ban the **SALE** of such magazines, not \*possession. \* ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2018, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-hardened-schools-prevent-mass-shootings/814617/126 "2018-05-23T20:41:51Z")
> [@Chisquirrel](#): > > The “Repeal the 2nd” movement is coming about because any “common sense” changes to gun laws is met with a screaming chorus of "2A 2A 2A 2A 2A! OMG FUKOFFMYGUNZ!‘’ Since the 2nd Amendment is being used as the armor to defend against any and all changes to gun laws, why should the opposition not try to remove it? Well, it is sometimes bruited about but the 2nd Ad is not in any way a LEGAL wall vs reasonable gun laws, SCOTUS even said so. But if you can’t get Congress to pass reasonable gun laws within the purview of the 2nd, what makes you think that will get rid of the 2nd Ad? But of course \*\*Scumpup \*\*is right. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2018, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-hardened-schools-prevent-mass-shootings/814617/127 "2018-05-23T20:43:52Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Also, since legal gun rights stem only from it, not from anywhere else in this or any other country’s constitutions or concepts of civilization or in any other moral code, its defenders are induced to adopt a religious view of it rather than a rational one. That spell needs to be broken, and the only way to do that is to end it. > . The exact same thing can be said about the 1st Ad. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2018, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-hardened-schools-prevent-mass-shootings/814617/128 "2018-05-23T20:45:56Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > “We can’t do anything until we repeal the 2nd” is pretty close to saying “We can’t do anything”. You can’t repeal the 2nd, and you don’t want to talk about anything besides repealing the 2nd. Yep. It wont be repealed in our lifetimes, if ever. But common sense gun control laws can be passed. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2018, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-hardened-schools-prevent-mass-shootings/814617/129 "2018-05-23T20:47:05Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > What about flooding schools with even more guns in the hands of untrained teachers? The proposition I heard was to give them free training and take away any rules prohibiting them from being armed. In other words, teachers could be armed if they so wished, and training would be offered. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2018, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-hardened-schools-prevent-mass-shootings/814617/130 "2018-05-23T20:50:44Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > The exact same thing can be said about the 1st Ad. Free speech rights go back to the Magna Carta at least. Try again. ---
**Author:** ![Ashtura](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ashtura/32/2963_2.png) [@Ashtura](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ashtura)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2018, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-hardened-schools-prevent-mass-shootings/814617/131 "2018-05-23T20:51:50Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Yep. It wont be repealed in our lifetimes, if ever. > > But common sense gun control laws can be passed. Is there _any_ so-called “common sense” gun law that, say, California (for example), has _not_ been able to pass because the 2nd amendment exists? Anybody know of one? Or are we strictly talking about federal law here? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2018, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-hardened-schools-prevent-mass-shootings/814617/132 "2018-05-23T20:52:33Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > But even after we do get rid of all guns Again, where are you getting that from? > [@](#): > > there still will be school mass killings and murders. But maybe less. Fewer people getting killed would be an improvement, yes. Glad we agree on something, however basic and obvious. Can we build on that now? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2018, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-hardened-schools-prevent-mass-shootings/814617/133 "2018-05-23T20:53:52Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Again, where are you getting that from? > > Fewer people getting killed would be an improvement, yes. Glad we agree on something, however basic and obvious. Can we build on that now? Sure, there would be less deaths of we got rid of all guns. How do you suggest that happening? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2018, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-hardened-schools-prevent-mass-shootings/814617/134 "2018-05-23T20:57:59Z")
> [@Ashtura](#): > > Is there _any_ so-called “common sense” gun law that, say, California (for example), has _not_ been able to pass because the 2nd amendment exists? Anybody know of one? Or are we strictly talking about federal law here? Well SCOTUS did strike down DC’s very restrictive gun laws and also Chicago’s. DCs= "handgun ban and requirement that lawfully-owned rifles and shotguns be kept “unloaded and disassembled or bound by a trigger lock” . Chicago “Chicago’s requirement that all firearms in the city be registered, yet refusing all handgun registrations after 1982 when a citywide handgun ban was passed”. I dont call either "common sense’ but others may disagree. So far, all of CA’s gun laws- some of which are very silly- have been allowed to continue. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2018, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-hardened-schools-prevent-mass-shootings/814617/135 "2018-05-23T20:59:58Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Free speech rights go back to the Magna Carta at least. Try again. The Bill of Rights 1689 , allowed Protestant citizens of England to “have Arms for their Defence suitable to their Conditions and as allowed by Law”. Try again. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2018, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-hardened-schools-prevent-mass-shootings/814617/136 "2018-05-23T21:06:07Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Free speech rights go back to the Magna Carta at least. Try again. Actually, no the Magna Carta did no such thing, it was the The Bill of Rights 1689 , the same Bill that gave the right to bear arms. ---
**Author:** ![Railer13](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/railer13/32/9742_2.png) [@Railer13](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Railer13)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2018, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-hardened-schools-prevent-mass-shootings/814617/137 "2018-05-23T21:12:17Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Then what would you do if you did get rid of the 2nd? If that were to happen (which it won’t in my lifetime), and I was in charge, I would ban all automatic and semi-automatic weapons. But I would not ban all guns. Do you see a difference? ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2018, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-hardened-schools-prevent-mass-shootings/814617/138 "2018-05-23T21:15:22Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > I suggest reaching out to troubled kids. \* Schools can’t comment publicly on confidential information. Maybe that’s why people assume schools don’t “reach out.” Teachers are trained to spot red flags. Usually this means not only reaching out to the student, but to his parent(s), too, as well as a referral to a school counselor and/or administrator. We simply don’t and can’t know how many school shootings have been averted this way. But not all potential school shooters are waving red flags. Some, in fact, are careful not to do so. Some red flags are, in fact, only red in retrospect. For red flag kids, adults reaching out is not always sufficient. A school can recommend therapy; it can’t force the parents to agree or follow through. A school can notify law enforcement and DFS; it can’t force them to act. Cops can advise parents to keep guns locked and out of the hands of the kid. (And yes, this is possible.) They can’t force parents to do so. I get it. It’d be so easy if “reaching out” were sufficient. It’s not. School shootings have multiple causes and need multiple solutions. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2018, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-hardened-schools-prevent-mass-shootings/814617/139 "2018-05-23T21:31:35Z")
> [@Railer13](#): > > If that were to happen (which it won’t in my lifetime), and I was in charge, I would ban all automatic and semi-automatic weapons. > > But I would not ban all guns. > > Do you see a difference? Sure. You do know that automatic guns are more or less banned now, right? And it might be within the purview of the 2nd to ban semi-autos. Mind you, you can fire a lever action or bolt action rifle really fast, so obviously they would have to be next, right? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2018, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-hardened-schools-prevent-mass-shootings/814617/140 "2018-05-23T21:32:54Z")
> [@nelliebly](#): > > Schools can’t comment publicly on confidential information. Maybe that’s why people assume schools don’t “reach out.” > I get it. It’d be so easy if “reaching out” were sufficient. It’s not. School shootings have multiple causes and need multiple solutions. And why is that? Protected by the Constitution? Of course it isn’t 100%. But it can and should be done and would reduce such shootings. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-hardened-schools-prevent-mass-shootings/814617.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-hardened-schools-prevent-mass-shootings/814617.md?page=8)