Are you saying all of the mass shooters discussed procured their firearms illegally?
This isn’t true. Here is a good article about the National Tracing Center and how they trace guns used in crimes.
So no one who purchased a gun at a gun store ever becomes a criminal? :dubious:
The claim is that repealing it is the only robust solution. And other claims that the 2nd is the primary obstacle.
Like what things? Everything except repeal gets dismissed out of hand. And even you are suggesting things, not because they will reduce school shootings, but to enable repealing the Second Amendment.
It seems like folks hereabouts don’t want to talk about any measures that don’t violate the Second Amendment. When it gets pointed out where and how those measures violate the Second, they talk about repealing it. Which seems to me to be [list=A][li]A recognition that those measures do, in fact, violate the Second Amendment, and [*]An admission that you ain’t got anything else.[/list][/li]You need a super-majority to repeal the Second Amendment. You have, in essence, a super-majority who don’t want to repeal the Second Amendment. And you don’t seem to have any suggestions that don’t amount to “repeal the Second Amendment” or “violate the Second Amendment”.
Regards,
Shodan
That was not your characterization.
It gets dismissed by you.:rolleyes: And so does repeal.
That is absolutely false, as been explained so many times that any more would be futile. The goal is to reduce killings, not to take away anybody’s cherished toys.
Have a nice day.
Nobody here ever said “all”, and it doesn’t help you to keep claiming that.
So you know one cop who practices.
I taught in three districts over some 31 years. One in Texas, two in Pennsylvania. I spent 9 years part-timing as a deputy sheriff. Gun ownership was common among the teachers I knew and, frankly, I knew more teachers who were expert shots than I did cops or deputies. My agency handled qualification for all the local departments and constables in the county. When we qualified, so did they. Did you know that in Pennsylvania it takes more hours of instruction to become a licensed beautician than it does to become a cop? How about where you live?
FTR, I am against arming teachers. If they are armed, there will be an expectation that they act as first responders. Unless they receive exactly the same indemnifications and protections that cops do, I say no dice. I was a union official through most of my career. I have seen administrator and school boards leave teachers twisting in the wind over things like breaking up fights. No way do I believe they would back an armed teacher following a firearm use.
A national gun ownership database
Requirements on owners to carry insurance
Liability if your gun is used in a crime (hence the insurance)
Transfer requirements regarding guns similar to what we have with cars
Serialized and registered ammunition - so you can track who bought the bullets
All possible and constitutional.
Well, I think repeal is politically and practically impossible. I haven’t dismissed the topic of the OP - that was everybody else.
If it’s false, when you said this -
what did you mean by “the primary obstacle”?
What suggestions do you have that [list=A][li]do not violate the Second Amendment, and []are not intended to enable the repeal of the Second Amendment, and[/li][li]would not take away anyone’s guns, and []would reduce killings?[/list][/li]Regards,
Shodan
Given that billions of rounds of .22lr alone are produced every year, I do not believe your last point is practical. We won’t even bother considering the countless millions of rounds already in the pool or the ease with which centerfire ammo can be reloaded.
No, you are right. Criminals get their guns by burglarizing gun stores. that might be a bit harder if there wasn’t one on every other corner.
They also get them from buying them from people who don’t have to ask for proof of residency or background checks.
They also get them from stealing them from gun owners who are careless about preventing their guns from being stolen.
So, if you were to eliminate the avenues of robbing gun stores, buying from legal purchasers, or stealing from legal purchasers, that would put a big dent in the guns flowing into the hands of criminals.
That is the claim that is made by pro-gun advocates.
For instance, an elected representative saying that a governor’s executive order “to get an update on weaknesses in the state’s gun background-check system.” is against 2A, and therefore, sheriff’s should ignore the order.
So yeah, when you get this sort of pushback, that even just asking counties to look into their reporting practices is considered to be an infringement on 2A, you may start to see some people think that it is time for it to go.
Don’t like it? Get your own house in order.
It’s not just accuracy that is important. It is the ability to properly read and respond to a situation. Most cops do this well. Sometimes when they don’t it makes the news.
Depends on the reason for use of the firearm. If it was to stop an active shooter, I don’t think that anyone would have a problem. If it is for talking back in class, that may be excessive use of force.
Perfect use during an active shooter? One shot and down goes the active shooter? In that case, they wouldn’t have to back the teacher. What if the teacher doesn’t respond. as cops have been known to do? What if the teacher misses the active shooter and hits a bystander? What if there is mistaken identity and the teacher shoots the wrong person? The legal system cuts LE a lot of slack and gives them a great deal of protection when they use their guns. To the point that it looks like cops get away with stuff that would send Joe Blow who has a carry permit to prison if he did it. Are you willing to extend all that protection to teachers? I refuse to carry in defense of others without those protections.
Good thing that isn’t the only possible way to reduce killings, isn’t it?
You claimed that every other possibility is dismissed - but it’s dismissed by you, not by the anti-killing side.
It’s the one upon which all resistance is based - more specifically, the one of which result-driven misinterpretations provide the basis for all the rest of the pro-fetish arguments. None of that, btw, exists anywhere else in the world or in history, despite its frequent characterization as a fundamental human right and religious precept, not as a single clause in a social contract in one country at one time.
[quote]
What suggestions do you have that [list=A][li]do not violate the Second Amendment, and []are not intended to enable the repeal of the Second Amendment, and[/li][li]would not take away anyone’s guns, and []would reduce killings?[/list][/li][/QUOTE]
Have you never read a gun thread here before?
Right…and teachers who know their students and deal with them day-in and day-out for years at a time couldn’t possibly be able to read a situation involving those students correctly.
My dad was a cop. My uncle was a state trooper. My aunt was a police dispatcher. I farted around with being a deputy. I’ve been around cops my whole life. They are, at best, no smarter, no braver, no more perceptive, no more competent than the gp. Yet they are trusted with having the power of life and death over others. These are the reasons most people I knew who became cops did so:
- Enjoy having the power the badge bestows.
- Laziness. Especially in small town departments, it is not a mentally or physically demanding job.
- Needed a job and it had benefits along with paying better than Home Depot.
- Just got out of the military and, since it involves uniforms and guns, it seemed like a good fit.
- Daddy or grampa was a cop.
Never did run into any that did it out of any sincere desire to serve and protect.
TLDR: Don’t overestimate the competency of the average cop.
I don’t disagree with the idea of not arming teachers, but it is not because I am concerned about them getting into trouble for shooting the wrong person, it is that I am concerned about the person that they may shoot wrongfully.
Yes, exactly. Knowing someone that well does make it harder to read. You may have presuppositions about someone, and so, when they make a motion that you find to be threatening, you shoot them in the head. Or, it could be your star pupil that suddenly goes on a shooting spree, and you can’t bring yourself to shoot them.
Making snap life or death decisions over people who are under your charge is harder, IMHO, than making those decisions about people you don’t know as well.
I also don’t know many teachers who have students all day, much less year after year. In most high schools, a student is going to be one of hundreds of people that the teacher sees for less than an hour a day along with 30 other students, and will very rarely see them again once they have taken the class that teacher teaches.
People become cops for many reasons. Personally, the cop I trust the most is the cop that took the job for the paycheck.
I think you are confusing me with everyone else in the thread. Or did you think ‘let’s talk about hardening schools’ meant dismissing it.
So when you said my statement was totally false, you meant that it was true. Gotcha.
And really - “anti-killing side”? 
Regards,
Shodan
Well, the “somewhat anti-killing side.” Or maybe the “anti-killing except for those gun owners who don’t submit to our will and all the LEO who will die as well.” Or maybe the “Let’s try to re-name ourselves because everything we’ve tried so far is tightly identified with disorganization, failure, and disingenuity.”
Do you have the same worry about cops and armed security guards? You do realize it takes far more training and screening to become a teacher than it does either one of those? You do realize that teaching requires background checks at the state and federal level, as well as through Child Protective Services, that must be updated annually? But Hell, teachers are the ones who we have to worry about killing a kid in anger. How often does that happen now? There’s fuck-all stopping a teacher from bringing a gun to school and going postal. How many times has that happened? How many people have been murdered by teachers v. murdered by cops, I wonder?
Well, yes. Of course I am more worried about a person that they wrongfully shoot than that they may get into trouble for wrongfully shooting someone.
I’m not sure where you are going with this. That cops sometimes make mistakes and shoot people that don’t need to be shot has nothing to do with teachers. You seem rather worked up, and I really cannot understand why.