# Do Holocaust Deniers Deny Other Nazi Travesties? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [November 30, 2010, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-holocaust-deniers-deny-other-nazi-travesties/562357 "2010-11-30T02:20:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2010, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-holocaust-deniers-deny-other-nazi-travesties/562357/21 "2010-11-30T21:29:34Z")
> [@Hypno-Toad](#): > > I don’t think I’ve ever run into a true holocaust denier. But there’s another group that my friends call the Nazi-Fetishists. Whenever we play WWII-era wargames, the NFs always have to play the Germans. At gaming cons, you see them wearing the Tiger Tank or “Michael Wittman” t-shirts. They always talk about how superior the Wehrmacht was and are just huge fanboys to the point of denying any fault in the German war machine. It’s always exaperating hearing them try to mitigate or rationalize the horrors committed by Waffen SS units in combat. Their uniforms DID rock. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2010, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-holocaust-deniers-deny-other-nazi-travesties/562357/22 "2010-12-01T13:41:53Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > That would be Ernst Röhm. 🙂 And you know the old saying: “When in Röhm…” ---
**Author:** ![Quercus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/7ab992/32.png) [@Quercus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quercus)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2010, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-holocaust-deniers-deny-other-nazi-travesties/562357/23 "2010-12-01T14:04:07Z")
> [@Markxxx](#): > > Germans counter the Blitz of London with the Dresden firebombing. Frankly, this seems like a pretty reasonable argument. Yeah, the Germans started it, but the Allies didn’t mind using the same tactics. It’s not like this was a war involving supernaturally powerful evil demons and sanctified angels. Germans were human beings as were US GIs. It’s fair to say that the German Army (including the Waffen SS) had a worse record in dealing with POWs than the Allies, but I can point to quite a few first-person accounts by US troops that mention incidents of German prisoners who never made it back to official POW facilities. War is hell and nobody, nobody, is perfect. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2010, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-holocaust-deniers-deny-other-nazi-travesties/562357/24 "2010-12-01T14:10:17Z")
> [@Quercus](#): > > but I can point to quite a few first-person accounts by US troops that mention incidents of German prisoners who never made it back to official POW facilities. I spoke with a veteran who was captured at the Battle of the Bulge. A German officer was taking prisoners away from the front. He knew the war was lost and didn’t watch when some slipped away. One sergeant, though was a real bastard. When they were liberated, two Americans gave two guys he had beaten up their tommy guns, and they killed the sergeant. ---
**Author:** ![Hypno-Toad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b2d939/32.png) [@Hypno-Toad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypno-Toad)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2010, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-holocaust-deniers-deny-other-nazi-travesties/562357/25 "2010-12-01T15:06:41Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > Their uniforms DID rock. To be fair, a lot of the NF’s are just plain ignorant about the atrocities the SS committed. Or they are just such fanboys about the military aspects of the SS that they overlook the “other stuff” and think that the real fanatics are the folks who go on and on about atrocities. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2010, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-holocaust-deniers-deny-other-nazi-travesties/562357/26 "2010-12-01T15:51:28Z")
> [@Quercus](#): > > Germans were human beings as were US GIs. It’s fair to say that the German Army (including the Waffen SS) had a worse record in dealing with POWs than the Allies, but I can point to quite a few first-person accounts by US troops that mention incidents of German prisoners who never made it back to official POW facilities. War is hell and nobody, nobody, is perfect. Granted, but I think it’s important to point out (as others have previously) that the Waffen SS were _not_ German Army - they were an independent armed force. And while the German Army certainly did more than its share of really horrible things, the SS was special - it was more or less _designed_ to do horrible things, and it did them with relish. If you told me there were decent men in the Wehrmacht, I wouldn’t argue the point - if you told me there were decent men in the Waffen SS, I most certainly would. (Unless there were conscripts in the Waffen SS - I’m not sure if they used them.) ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2010, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-holocaust-deniers-deny-other-nazi-travesties/562357/27 "2010-12-01T16:05:44Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > Their uniforms DID rock. There are two logish recent threads here on the coolness of SS uniforms and Hugo Boss’s purportave (is that a word?) role in their design. I’m sorry I can’t do hyperlinked threads cuz of some medical stuff with my hands. ---
**Author:** ![bonzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/45deac/32.png) [@bonzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bonzer)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2010, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-holocaust-deniers-deny-other-nazi-travesties/562357/28 "2010-12-01T20:59:06Z")
> [@brix11](#): > > Sorry to create a tangent, but what did the Nazis do to the Palace of Versailles? I’m not sure they did very much with Versailles at all. The French had managed to evacuate most of the major art works in the national collections southwards ahead of the German advance, so with various exceptions that tended to sit out the Occupation under Vichy control. The notoriety of [the ERR’s looting in France](http://www.errproject.org/jeudepaume/) is mainly that they were stealing artistic riches from private Jewish collections, rather than the likes of the contents of the Louvre or Versailles. Not that they were above doing the latter, but it’s that the former were both more to hand and easier for them to rationalise ownership of. Exactly how Versailles was used during the Occupation, I don’t know. And it’s a question that’s annoyingly difficult to Google. But I’d suspect it was too tempting for some German commander not to use as an HQ. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2010, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-holocaust-deniers-deny-other-nazi-travesties/562357/29 "2010-12-01T22:34:31Z")
There’s a degree of overlap between Holocaust deniers and defenders of other German actions in WWII (as you might expect) but essential differences as well. There are people who downplay/minimize German war crimes out of national pride or to point fingers at what the Allies did. On the other hand, the prime motivation behind Holocaust denial is [to promote anti-Semitism](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_denial). The Holocaust is an enormous barrier in the way of renewed widespread hatred of Jews, so if the deniers can succeed in casting doubt on what happened their goal is eased considerably. Another tactic is to pretend that the Holocaust is a nefarious Jewish invention. _“Most Holocaust denial claims imply, or openly state, that the Holocaust is a hoax arising out of a deliberate Jewish conspiracy to advance the interest of Jews at the expense of other peoples.[7] For this reason, Holocaust denial is generally considered to be an antisemitic[8] conspiracy theory.”_ Every major Holocaust denial figure I’ve ever heard of (the most notorious modern example, David Irving included) has a background of anti-Semitic bigotry. So while some of these folks will deny other Nazi atrocities as well, it’s the Holocaust that they’re most obsessed with covering up. ---
**Author:** ![Qwakkeddup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/90ced4/32.png) [@Qwakkeddup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qwakkeddup)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2010, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-holocaust-deniers-deny-other-nazi-travesties/562357/30 "2010-12-02T00:20:43Z")
Hello, just dropped in to give you all someone to point at and laugh. I read the title three times, then opened it to read a little. Took me to post #6 to realize we were not talking about Nazi Transvestites. Geeze, I love to read, but my comprehension is terrible.😕 ---
**Author:** ![Qwakkeddup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/90ced4/32.png) [@Qwakkeddup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qwakkeddup)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2010, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-holocaust-deniers-deny-other-nazi-travesties/562357/31 "2010-12-02T00:29:37Z")
Now I am a little relieved to see I am not the only one. Whew! ---
**Author:** ![Brandinho](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Brandinho](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brandinho)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2010, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-holocaust-deniers-deny-other-nazi-travesties/562357/32 "2010-12-02T00:46:13Z")
> [@Jinx](#): > > I was wondering if there is a factual answer to know how Holocaust deniers think. Do they deny Crystalnacht? How the Nazis bombed the hell out of England? What the Nazis did to the Louvre? To the Palace of Versailles? To the Amber Room in Russia? And, so on? > > (Based on this track record, is the Holocaust really that much of a stretch?) Kristallnacht aside, I fail to see how those other things are travesties. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2010, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-holocaust-deniers-deny-other-nazi-travesties/562357/33 "2010-12-02T02:55:18Z")
> [@Brandinho](#): > > Kristallnacht aside, I fail to see how those other things are travesties. Bombing England isn’t exactly what I consider all that friendly. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Brandinho](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Brandinho](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brandinho)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2010, 9:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-holocaust-deniers-deny-other-nazi-travesties/562357/34 "2010-12-02T09:39:11Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Bombing England isn’t exactly what I consider all that friendly. :dubious: Well sure, war isn’t supposed to be friendly. I fail to see what specifically is a travesty about it, though. We’re not talking about the fire bombing of Dresden. ---
**Author:** ![Quercus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/7ab992/32.png) [@Quercus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quercus)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2010, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-holocaust-deniers-deny-other-nazi-travesties/562357/35 "2010-12-02T13:57:56Z")
> [@Mr.Excellent](#): > > If you told me there were decent men in the Wehrmacht, I wouldn’t argue the point - if you told me there were decent men in the Waffen SS, I most certainly would. Well, actually, I am saying that there were decent men in the Waffen SS. They weren’t hell-spawned creatures of pure evil; they were frikken human beings. Like all of us human beings, each one of them did some noble things and some selfish things (such as indulging in hate). Now, I wouldn’t dispute that the record of the Waffen SS on prisoner treatment is worse than other groups that size on the Western Front, and would admit it’s not just random, that the culture of the group contributed to that. But are you seriously arguing that not one member of the Waffen SS ever did a moral act? That not a single man out of the millions was mildly anti-Nazi and joined just because his buddies? That you can even judge as moral or not a 16 year old who joined because his father made him and then just followed orders? Or that there weren’t real complex human beings, maybe someone who really thought getting Jews out of Germany was a good thing, but respected the Allies enough to make extra efforts to treat well prisoners and residents of occupied territories? Come on. It seems to me that arguing every member of the Waffen SSwas existentially evil is pretty much the same as arguing that every GI was completely pure. And we know the second isn’t true. We’re all human, and we all do good things and bad things – me, you, and the guy in the corner. In war, the bad things can be much worse. I’m grateful that I’ve never been in the situation where I’ve had a gun pointed at someone and a difficult moral choice to make. It does no good to pretend that what color uniform I’m wearing makes me an angel or devil though. ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2010, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-holocaust-deniers-deny-other-nazi-travesties/562357/36 "2010-12-02T15:50:43Z")
> [@Brandinho](#): > > Kristallnacht aside, I fail to see how those other things are travesties. Any suggestions as to what I should get my significant other for Kristallnacht? ---
**Author:** ![Hypno-Toad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b2d939/32.png) [@Hypno-Toad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypno-Toad)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2010, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-holocaust-deniers-deny-other-nazi-travesties/562357/37 "2010-12-02T15:52:31Z")
New windows. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2010, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-holocaust-deniers-deny-other-nazi-travesties/562357/38 "2010-12-02T16:04:01Z")
Bill O’Reilly has consistently denied the Malmandy Massacre. \*In Malmédy, as you know, U.S. forces captured SS forces who had their hands in the air and they were unarmed and they shot them down." \* ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2010, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-holocaust-deniers-deny-other-nazi-travesties/562357/39 "2010-12-02T17:02:06Z")
> [@Brandinho](#): > > Well sure, war isn’t supposed to be friendly. I fail to see what specifically is a travesty about it, though. We’re not talking about the fire bombing of Dresden. I don’t see why you would draw a difference between the two. I don’t blame the Nazis for bombing England. But I sure as hell don’t blame the British and Americans for bombing Dresden. All complaints seem to be based on a ridiculous concept that the RAF/USAAF was better at finishing what the Luftwaffe started. Tough shit, mein Freund. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2010, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-holocaust-deniers-deny-other-nazi-travesties/562357/40 "2010-12-02T17:59:45Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > Bill O’Reilly has consistently denied the Malmandy Massacre. > > \*In Malmédy, as you know, U.S. forces captured SS forces who had their hands in the air and they were unarmed and they shot them down." \* I think you’ve got it backwards, there. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-holocaust-deniers-deny-other-nazi-travesties/562357.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-holocaust-deniers-deny-other-nazi-travesties/562357.md?page=3)