# Do Holocaust Deniers Deny Other Nazi Travesties? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [November 30, 2010, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-holocaust-deniers-deny-other-nazi-travesties/562357 "2010-11-30T02:20:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2010, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-holocaust-deniers-deny-other-nazi-travesties/562357/41 "2010-12-02T18:06:44Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > I think you’ve got it backwards, there. No - O’Really got it backwards. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2010, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-holocaust-deniers-deny-other-nazi-travesties/562357/42 "2010-12-02T18:08:47Z")
> [@Quercus](#): > > Well, actually, I am saying that there were decent men in the Waffen SS. They weren’t hell-spawned creatures of pure evil; they were frikken human beings. Like all of us human beings, each one of them did some noble things and some selfish things (such as indulging in hate). > > Now, I wouldn’t dispute that the record of the Waffen SS on prisoner treatment is worse than other groups that size on the Western Front, and would admit it’s not just random, that the culture of the group contributed to that. But are you seriously arguing that not one member of the Waffen SS ever did a moral act? That not a single man out of the millions was mildly anti-Nazi and joined just because his buddies? That you can even judge as moral or not a 16 year old who joined because his father made him and then just followed orders? Or that there weren’t real complex human beings, maybe someone who really thought getting Jews out of Germany was a good thing, but respected the Allies enough to make extra efforts to treat well prisoners and residents of occupied territories? Come on. > > It seems to me that arguing every member of the Waffen SSwas existentially evil is pretty much the same as arguing that every GI was completely pure. And we know the second isn’t true. We’re all human, and we all do good things and bad things – me, you, and the guy in the corner. In war, the bad things can be much worse. I’m grateful that I’ve never been in the situation where I’ve had a gun pointed at someone and a difficult moral choice to make. It does no good to pretend that what color uniform I’m wearing makes me an angel or devil though. Will I judge them? Hell yes I will. An I’ll judge them all guilty as hell. We’re talking about the unit Mengele belonged to. The SS was responsible for some of the greatest attrocities the Nazis committed. And no, “joining because of your buddies” isn’t an excuse. That’s the equivalent of joining the KKK just because your friends are doing so. > [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > I think you’ve got it backwards, there. Just in case you’re not joking, that was what O’Reilly did – got the story backwards. Twice. Then when called upon it, he weaseled and Fox changed the transcripts so it said _Normandy_. Olbermann (rightly) tore him a new one for doing so. (NOT for getting it wrong so much but because he didn’t admit it) ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2010, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-holocaust-deniers-deny-other-nazi-travesties/562357/43 "2010-12-02T19:07:04Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > We’re talking about the unit Mengele belonged to. The SS was responsible for some of the greatest attrocities the Nazis committed. Supposedly the Waffen SS were regular army units, not Mengele’s bunch. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2010, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-holocaust-deniers-deny-other-nazi-travesties/562357/44 "2010-12-02T19:16:07Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Supposedly the Waffen SS were regular army units, not Mengele’s bunch. No, they specifically weren’t regular army units. They were SS units. And every single member of the SS was declared a war criminal after the war. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2010, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-holocaust-deniers-deny-other-nazi-travesties/562357/45 "2010-12-02T23:35:57Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Supposedly the Waffen SS were regular army units, not Mengele’s bunch. You’re thinking of the Wehrmacht. THEY were the regular army. (Rommel, for example, was in the Werhrmacht.) ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2010, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-holocaust-deniers-deny-other-nazi-travesties/562357/46 "2010-12-02T23:40:08Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > You’re thinking of the Wehrmacht. THEY were the regular army. No, I was thinking that the _Waffen_ SS operated as regular army units rather than SS stuff. They did indeed after 1943, when non-aryans, navy and airforce guys with nothing left to operate were [conscripted](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waffen-SS) into Waffen SS units. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2010, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-holocaust-deniers-deny-other-nazi-travesties/562357/47 "2010-12-03T00:10:17Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Supposedly the Waffen SS were regular army units, not Mengele’s bunch. Mengele was Waffen SS, too; a doctor with SS Wiking division in the Ukraine, then, after he was wounded, he was moved from front line duty, first to the Race and Resettlement Office, and then a medical officer at Auschwitz’s Gypsy camp. After it was liquidated, he was made Chief Medical Officer at the Birkenau subcamp at Auschwitz. You’re thinking about the Totenkopfverbaende, which ran the concentration camps, but Mengele was never in the SS-TV, only the Waffen SS. It’s sort of a moot point anyway, because the SS-TV and Waffen SS had a lot of overlap, especially after 1940, when Himmler weakened the SS-TV by putting it under Waffen SS administration. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2010, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-holocaust-deniers-deny-other-nazi-travesties/562357/48 "2010-12-03T15:23:55Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > No, I was thinking that the _Waffen_ SS operated as regular army units rather than SS stuff. They did indeed after 1943, when non-aryans, navy and airforce guys with nothing left to operate were [conscripted](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waffen-SS) into Waffen SS units. And you were flat out wrong. They were specifically not regular army units. They were war criminals. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2010, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-holocaust-deniers-deny-other-nazi-travesties/562357/49 "2010-12-04T05:03:42Z")
> [@villa](#): > > And you were flat out wrong. They were specifically not regular army units. They were war criminals. Waffen-SS did do some conscription of Volksdeutsche, though. ---
**Author:** ![Wakinyan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wakinyan/32/352_2.png) [@Wakinyan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wakinyan)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2010, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-holocaust-deniers-deny-other-nazi-travesties/562357/50 "2010-12-04T14:19:12Z")
> [@villa](#): > > No, they specifically weren’t regular army units. They were SS units. And every single member of the SS was declared a war criminal after the war. But this wasn’t because every one of them committed war crimes, but because they were considered to be political – or Nazi – troops, I believe; while Wermacht who too committed war crimes, was regular troops. Also, I think this was on the initiative of the Soviets, who had all their “political” “soldiers” (commisaars) shot on spot by the German army/SS. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2010, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-holocaust-deniers-deny-other-nazi-travesties/562357/51 "2010-12-04T16:36:28Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Waffen-SS did do some conscription of Volksdeutsche, though. I don’t deny there was conscription into the SS. But they were not regular army units. ---
**Author:** ![Quercus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/7ab992/32.png) [@Quercus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quercus)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2010, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-holocaust-deniers-deny-other-nazi-travesties/562357/52 "2010-12-04T16:53:12Z")
> [@villa](#): > > I don’t deny there was conscription into the SS. But they were not regular army units. So you’re saying that some regular apolitical (or even anti-Nazi) German who got drafted into the SS was somehow turned into some kind of non-human creature of pure evil? How exactly do you think that worked? Were they more or less human than a GI who followed his sargent’s orders to shoot a German prisoner ? I honestly really don’t understand how you can think that tens or hundreds of thousands of people can be universally described as ‘guilty’. Some did horrible things, some went along with it, some tried to stop or lessen them, and most probably did different things at different times. I mean, I know that I’ve done bad things I’m not proud of; I’ve also stood up for what’s right. How can I possibly think other people are any different? Again, I agree that organizations can have a culture and organization that affects how individuals within them act; and I’m not denying that the SS had a bad record, and could, as an organization, be described as morally bad. But that doesn’t mean each person involved was pure evil; they were human beings. ---
**Author:** ![Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2010, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-holocaust-deniers-deny-other-nazi-travesties/562357/53 "2010-12-04T16:55:22Z")
Not to get too far off topic, but I’m in the middle of reading [The Lampshade](http://www.amazon.ca/Lampshade-Holocaust-Detective-Buchenwald-Orleans/dp/1416566279/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1291481553&sr=1-1). The author has his hands on what appears so far to be a mid-century central-European lampshade made of human skin. He addresses the issue of Holocaust deniers at several points. So far it is quite good, if you can tolerate the subject matter. I’ll keep you posted. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-holocaust-deniers-deny-other-nazi-travesties/562357.md?page=2)