Do humans have free will?

[Half_Man_Half_Wit]

It’s probably clear to everybody who’s read any of my posts, but the views begbert2 is ascribing to me aren’t mine.

[Mijin]

@begbert2

Of course this situation wouldn’t come up all that often, and it would be a stretch to say it adds any significant amount of free will.

Right. I should have included the partly-random, partly-“clockwork” option but I think all sides will say it wouldn’t leave room for free will.

For me, the point where I realized the free will concept was silly was when I first heard someone say whether the universe is clockwork, or random at some level, there’s no room for free will. Rather than accepting that that means the statement “There is no free will” is true, I thought about whether there’s any hypothetical universe in which it could exist and whether the concept itself is coherently defined.

The answers are “none” and “no”.

The debate worked a lot better when it was the gods determining things, rather than causality. When the question was whether the gods’ foresight and/or their willingness to actively manipulate us robbed us of agency it gave us two separate parties vying for control of our lives: us and them.

Absolutely. In my view, there are ways you can define free will where it’s trivially obvious that we have it (or trivially obvious that we don’t).

But our religious culture / history means we have stuck on a weird, self-inconsistent unclear meaning. Because those who believe in an omnimax god want to also believe he is 0% culpable for anything bad that happens, and can fairly “judge” us. But there’s no way that can make sense.

[begbert2]

@Mijin

Right. I should have included the partly-random, partly-“clockwork” option but I think all sides will say it wouldn’t leave room for free will.

For me, the point where I realized the free will concept was silly was when I first heard someone say whether the universe is clockwork, or random at some level, there’s no room for free will. Rather than accepting that that means the statement “There is no free will” is true, I thought about whether there’s any hypothetical universe in which it could exist and whether the concept itself is coherently defined.

The answers are “none” and “no”.

As a compatiblist, I feel obliged to say something akin to “well, now, it all depends on how you define the term.”

For example, we compatiblists are lazy-butts. We just point at a person, crudely draw a circle in crayon around their heads, and say “If the stuff happening in there is what determines how he acts, then he’s got free will!” And by gum, he does!

@Mijin

Absolutely. In my view, there are ways you can define free will where it’s trivially obvious that we have it (or trivially obvious that we don’t).

But our religious culture / history means we have stuck on a weird, self-inconsistent unclear meaning. Because those who believe in an omnimax god want to also believe he is 0% culpable for anything bad that happens, and can fairly “judge” us. But there’s no way that can make sense.

Sometimes it’s great being an atheist. So much baggage that we can just toss cavalierly in the dumpster.