# Do I stand up for this little girl? Do I say something? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [May 16, 2010, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-i-stand-up-for-this-little-girl-do-i-say-something/539648 "2010-05-16T15:35:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2010, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-i-stand-up-for-this-little-girl-do-i-say-something/539648/21 "2010-05-16T19:59:07Z")
> [@Angry Lurker](#): > > He’s almost certainly not doing anything wrong, otherwise the crowd of family members would have done something. LOL. Seriously? Many families go into denial in these situations. Having to confront that your brother is hurting your kids is something most people would rather pretend isn’t happening than face head on. If the 10 year old girl is holding herself and shaking her head, then she feels violated. Even if the uncle is acting innocently with all the touching (which I doubt, but I guess is possible) he still shouldn’t be putting a 10 year old in a situation where she feels violated. This is something I’d talk to the girls parents about. ---
**Author:** ![BoBettie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4af34b/32.png) [@BoBettie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BoBettie)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2010, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-i-stand-up-for-this-little-girl-do-i-say-something/539648/22 "2010-05-16T20:14:42Z")
I honest to god do not understand. In 2 YEARS not one time could you muster the courage to say “STOP THAT” when someone is touching you inappropriately? I suggest that whatever the outcome of this situation, you delve a little deeper into that particular personality problem of yours. You have to be able to stand up for yourself, it’s part of how you survive and keep yourself safe. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2010, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-i-stand-up-for-this-little-girl-do-i-say-something/539648/23 "2010-05-16T20:16:09Z")
> [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](#): > > Bear hugging a kid isn’t groping. This. I’m confused over the description of the events. Some people are bear huggers and some aren’t. I know many women who are bear huggers. I always took it as a sign they liked me as a person or were just the huggy type. ---
**Author:** ![Baracus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/2bfe46/32.png) [@Baracus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baracus)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2010, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-i-stand-up-for-this-little-girl-do-i-say-something/539648/24 "2010-05-16T20:26:57Z")
> [@Justin\_Bailey](#): > > Groping has a very clear definition. If this man has been groping the OP, for years, in front of his wife and she is completely unfazed by this, the most logical solution is that the OP is over-sensitive. It is hard for me to imagine one of my wife’s friends falsely accusing me of groping/molesting her and the friendship not ending then and there. I think the wife being nuts, in denial, or completely subordinate to this man are as likely explanations. Not that hard to work a little ass-grab and slide a hand across a boob in the midst of an embrace without it being obvious to casual observers either. ---
**Author:** ![luv2draw](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/46a35a/32.png) [@luv2draw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/luv2draw)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2010, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-i-stand-up-for-this-little-girl-do-i-say-something/539648/25 "2010-05-16T20:39:03Z")
The key here, IMHO, is that if the child is resisting for whatever reason, she shouldn’t be forced. ---
**Author:** ![Enter\_the\_Flagon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Enter\_the\_Flagon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enter_the_Flagon)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2010, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-i-stand-up-for-this-little-girl-do-i-say-something/539648/26 "2010-05-16T20:41:09Z")
For the people who doubt that there’s anything wrong with what the guy is doing, you may be right, but I’d like to offer as evidence my own childhood experience: Whenever there was a family gathering, a certain relative of mine would take the opportunity to sit next to one of my sisters at the dinner table. In front of everyone there, he’d begin rubbing her legs, moving his hand toward her crotch or buttocks, whereupon she’d squirm away and whisper “stop” - which he would, for a while, and then start the whole thing over. This happened countless times. No one ever said a word, as far as I’m aware, not even his wife. I’m guessing that everyone there was too embarrassed or intimidated to act, so denial seemed to be the best option available. A more distant side of the family had a scandal erupt some years ago, when an adult female relative accused her uncle of sexually abusing her as a child. She was quickly and viciously disowned by many in the family, until other females eventually came forward to corroborate the abuse, which split the family into two camps - those who scorned the uncle, versus those who publicly maintained his innocence, even after he was convicted. His supporters included women who’d apparently been among his victims. Hard to understand, but probably not so uncommon. > [@dangermom](#): > > What **GilaB** said. Next time he does it to you, stomp on his instep, knee him in the groin, and tell him in a loud voice to never do that again or you’ll do worse. Doing it in front of his family seems like a great idea to me. While I wholeheartedly agree with this action in principle, I think that it might be a little drastic for starters, and could even contain the potential to backfire spectacularly. It might be better to start off by allowing the jerk the opportunity to back off from some less combative, more subtle “cease and desist” order, in a way that allows him to save face. If he refuses to get the message, escalate incrementally as necessary, not excluding the use of mace/tasers/police involvement. Again, I’d strongly advise against taking action without at least consulting some professionals. ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2010, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-i-stand-up-for-this-little-girl-do-i-say-something/539648/27 "2010-05-16T20:44:23Z")
Why are you continuously making an effort to put yourself in proximity to this groping man? In that you describe this an ongoing problem you have addressed, and he just won’t stop, it seems beyond bizarre to me that you continue to socialize with this woman and her husband. Why? Don’t say “self esteem”. Self esteem may keep you from piping up when he originally behaved like a molesting jackass, but “self esteem” is not making you get dressed, get in the car, and go over to her house for another round of groping with this guy over and over again. Why do you keep deciding to put yourself in proximity to this jerk? ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2010, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-i-stand-up-for-this-little-girl-do-i-say-something/539648/28 "2010-05-16T21:06:03Z")
> [@luv2draw](#): > > The key here, IMHO, is that if the child is resisting for whatever reason, she shouldn’t be forced. yup. Even if it is innocent, forcing a 10 year old into physical contact where she probably feels violated can’t be good. ---
**Author:** ![GilaB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8e7dd6/32.png) [@GilaB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GilaB)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2010, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-i-stand-up-for-this-little-girl-do-i-say-something/539648/29 "2010-05-16T21:07:22Z")
With regard to stomping his instep, I interpreted **Dangermom** ’s endorsement of my suggestion as a two-step process: 1. The first time he does this, tell him calmly, firmly, and very clearly that you do not like what he is doing, and that he should stop it. Do not hedge, apologize, or act in any way that implies that you are somehow imposing, being difficult, or have done anything wrong; he is the abusive jerk, and you are standing up for yourself in a proper and adult fashion. Before you see him again (if you choose to, since if your ‘friend’ doesn’t care enough about you to stop her husband from hurting and upsetting you, why do you want to spend time with her?), rehearse what you will say. 2. If he does it again, after the calm, firm, clear request to stop has been made, _then_ “stomp on his instep, knee him in the groin, and tell him in a loud voice to never do that again or you’ll do worse.” ETA: Step three - Profit! (Because you’ve learned to stand up for yourself, he doesn’t grope you anymore, and just possibly you’ve taught the groper a lesson.) ---
**Author:** ![Enter\_the\_Flagon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Enter\_the\_Flagon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enter_the_Flagon)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2010, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-i-stand-up-for-this-little-girl-do-i-say-something/539648/30 "2010-05-16T21:23:03Z")
> [@astro](#): > > Why are you continuously making an effort to put yourself in proximity to this groping man? In that you describe this an ongoing problem you have addressed, and he just won’t stop, it seems beyond bizarre to me that you continue to socialize with this woman and her husband. > > Why? Don’t say “self esteem”. Self esteem may keep you from piping up when he originally behaved like a molesting jackass, but “self esteem” is not making you get dressed, get in the car, and go over to her house for another round of groping with this guy over and over again. Maybe it is. A lot of well-educated people have studied the problem of human self-defeating behavior pretty carefully, and their theories aren’t so conclusive as yours. Given that humans - consciously or not - have been their own worst enemies over countless millennia, you risk, by singling out this poster, coming across as a bully. ---
**Author:** ![brujaja](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4af34b/32.png) [@brujaja](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brujaja)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2010, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-i-stand-up-for-this-little-girl-do-i-say-something/539648/31 "2010-05-16T21:27:31Z")
I’m with several posters above – I think that whatever the dude is doing, if the niece does not want to hug, that must be respected. Children should not be _forced_ into physical affection against their wishes. I’m not talking about saying, “Go give Auntie So-and-So a kiss,” I’m talking about _making_ them do it if they refuse. It’s the kind of thing that gives a person a complex. A family that _will_ force that is IMHO a family who cannot be trusted to respect others’ boundaries. Again, I’m not talking about caving in to weird idiosyncrasies – this is something very basic. That being said, I think most women here can attest that there is a subtle difference in vibe between someone who is honestly affectionate – even if they are way more affectionate than you are comfortable with – and someone who is **creepy.** It’s hard to mistake the one for the other. ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2010, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-i-stand-up-for-this-little-girl-do-i-say-something/539648/32 "2010-05-16T22:21:38Z")
> [@Enter\_the\_Flagon](#): > > Maybe it is. A lot of well-educated people have studied the problem of human self-defeating behavior pretty carefully, and their theories aren’t so conclusive as yours. Given that humans - consciously or not - have been their own worst enemies over countless millennia, you risk, by singling out this poster, coming across as a bully. I’m singling her out for “abuse” by asking why she keeps putting her hand back on the red hot stove? This isn’t bad breath or poor table manners he’s trying to grope her! That you think even daring to ask this overwhelmingly obvious question that stands as the elephant in the room (IMO) in this vignette of bad behavior, is tantamount to abusive bullying is mind boggling. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Poster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Happy\_Poster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Poster)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2010, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-i-stand-up-for-this-little-girl-do-i-say-something/539648/33 "2010-05-16T22:29:35Z")
> [@Ellen\_Cherry](#): > > **Angry Lurker** , this question is being exhaustively addressed in [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=563309). If you’d like some insight on this subject, I recommend you take a look! > > (Note: I am posting this as a regular poster, not a moderator.) At best this response is stupid. At worst it is offensive. Good thing you’re not being a moderator, as such a response would show you as totally unfit. ---
**Author:** ![Enter\_the\_Flagon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Enter\_the\_Flagon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enter_the_Flagon)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2010, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-i-stand-up-for-this-little-girl-do-i-say-something/539648/34 "2010-05-16T22:36:52Z")
> [@astro](#): > > I’m singling her out for “abuse” by asking why she keeps putting her hand back on the red hot stove? This isn’t bad breath or poor table manners he’s trying to grope her! > > That you think even daring to ask this overwhelmingly obvious question that stands as the elephant in the room (IMO) in this vignette of bad behavior, is tantamount to abusive bullying is mind boggling. The question itself really isn’t illegitimate, your tone while asking it is what I object to - you seem to me to be castigating her. I could’ve been more clear on that, sorry. Now if you really want an answer to your question - because so few people have much insight into their own repetitive mistakes - you may want to start [here](http://www.psychwiki.com/wiki/Self-Defeating_Behavior). ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2010, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-i-stand-up-for-this-little-girl-do-i-say-something/539648/35 "2010-05-16T22:37:59Z")
I don’t know how to respond to the situation with the girl but I’d like to echo other posters’ suggestions that if he is indeed groping you, you should never allow yourself to be alone with him. The scenario with the little girl is a tough one. There’s almost nothing you can do. If, while she’s being hugged, you had said “she looks uncomfortable, you should stop touching her,” the entire family would have likely stared at you, bewildered and offended. And if you call the police you’d have the entire group of them saying that the girl was merely shy at being hugged by people she didn’t know very well. I don’t know what you can do. Maybe talk with the girl’s parents in private? ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Poster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Happy\_Poster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Poster)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2010, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-i-stand-up-for-this-little-girl-do-i-say-something/539648/36 "2010-05-16T22:39:42Z")
> [@brujaja](#): > > I’m with several posters above – I think that whatever the dude is doing, if the niece does not want to hug, that must be respected. Children should not be _forced_ into physical affection against their wishes. I’m not talking about saying, “Go give Auntie So-and-So a kiss,” I’m talking about _making_ them do it if they refuse. It’s the kind of thing that gives a person a complex. A family that _will_ force that is IMHO a family who cannot be trusted to respect others’ boundaries. Again, I’m not talking about caving in to weird idiosyncrasies – this is something very basic. > > That being said, I think most women here can attest that there is a subtle difference in vibe between someone who is honestly affectionate – even if they are way more affectionate than you are comfortable with – and someone who is **creepy.** It’s hard to mistake the one for the other. What bloody evidence do we have that the niece doesn’t want to be “groped”? Listen, it’s pretty clear the OP is posting in good faith. What is not clear is that she has anything to complain about whatsoever. Having seen so many of these complaints I can be fairly sure that unless provided with a reason to think otherwise then this is just unfortunate clumsiness. There has to be a balance of sympathy and skepticalness on this board. It’s a difficult balance to strike as almost certainly no one is making malicious accusations here; nevertheless that doesn’t mean we ought to take all that is fixed down as fact. ---
**Author:** ![Miss\_Gnomer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miss_gnomer/32/3466_2.png) [@Miss\_Gnomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miss_Gnomer)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2010, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-i-stand-up-for-this-little-girl-do-i-say-something/539648/37 "2010-05-16T22:41:18Z")
Thanks for the great range of responses. I think it is pretty obvious in my original post that I’ve handled this badly and that I don’t have the social/personal skills to really assess or react to the situation in the ideal way. One of my many failings in life! I would like to say - that no, I don’t think I’m misinterpretting his behaviour towards me (I could be towards the child) - a married man hugging you and rubbing his chest (and more) against yours whilst saying “I love boobies” and you’re struggling with all your strength to get away … is NOT hard to interpret! The man is clever and persistent … each time I have said no … he pushes those boundaries again later on. Yesterday was a good example … I come in the door and meet all his children, wife and him … each gets a hug … I manage to make the hug with him safe by turning away and giving him a “cold shoulder” and then not getting within a couple of metres of him. Later on in church (I’m an atheist, I was attending for the family) there was a point in the service where they turn and shake hands … I’m shaking his kids hands for fun and realise I’ve got no way of not touching him without being rude … I think I’m safe … I’m in his church and he proclaims belief for all it stands for … reaching past his wife he grabs my hand and raises it to his mouth to KISS it!!! Yup … once again he’s picked a time he knows I’m not going to call him out … and I admire those of you who have the confidence to call out this guy in a packed church surrounded by strangers who know and trust him. And yes, I shouldn’t have let him touch me. His wife usually will say something when he gets excessive like “stop, you know ‘Miss\_Gnomer’ doesn’t like that” … which doesn’t stop him for a moment. Because of his behaviour I usually catch up with the wife/children alone … usually once a year I’m in a situation where he’s there … I’ve known them for more than 10 years and my contact with them has gradually reduced. As for the child … I have no other contact with her parents, I’ve only met them about 5 times over the past 10 years, I will not see them for another couple of years. By then the behaviour of doing exactly what I originally did will be ingrained in her and she too may come to the point I’m at - 20 something years later. (note: I doubt the child’s mother has been “hugged” in the way I have … his brother’s wife would be off limits for this extreme behaviour … he’s picking on women like me with no protection (external or internal)) ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2010, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-i-stand-up-for-this-little-girl-do-i-say-something/539648/38 "2010-05-16T22:46:52Z")
> [@Miss\_Gnomer](#): > > Thanks for the great range of responses. > > I think it is pretty obvious in my original post that I’ve handled this badly and that I don’t have the social/personal skills to really assess or react to the situation in the ideal way. One of my many failings in life! > > I would like to say - that no, I don’t think I’m misinterpretting his behaviour towards me (I could be towards the child) - a married man hugging you and rubbing his chest (and more) against yours whilst saying “I love boobies” and you’re struggling with all your strength to get away … is NOT hard to interpret! > > The man is clever and persistent … each time I have said no … he pushes those boundaries again later on. Yesterday was a good example … I come in the door and meet all his children, wife and him … each gets a hug … I manage to make the hug with him safe by turning away and giving him a “cold shoulder” and then not getting within a couple of metres of him. Later on in church (I’m an atheist, I was attending for the family) there was a point in the service where they turn and shake hands … I’m shaking his kids hands for fun and realise I’ve got no way of not touching him without being rude … I think I’m safe … I’m in his church and he proclaims belief for all it stands for … reaching past his wife he grabs my hand and raises it to his mouth to KISS it!!! > > Yup … once again he’s picked a time he knows I’m not going to call him out … and I admire those of you who have the confidence to call out this guy in a packed church surrounded by strangers who know and trust him. And yes, I shouldn’t have let him touch me. > > His wife usually will say something when he gets excessive like “stop, you know ‘Miss\_Gnomer’ doesn’t like that” … which doesn’t stop him for a moment. > > Because of his behaviour I usually catch up with the wife/children alone … usually once a year I’m in a situation where he’s there … I’ve known them for more than 10 years and my contact with them has gradually reduced. > > As for the child … I have no other contact with her parents, I’ve only met them about 5 times over the past 10 years, I will not see them for another couple of years. By then the behaviour of doing exactly what I originally did will be ingrained in her and she too may come to the point I’m at - 20 something years later. > > (note: I doubt the child’s mother has been “hugged” in the way I have … his brother’s wife would be off limits for this extreme behaviour … he’s picking on women like me with no protection (external or internal)) I’m sorry that you lack the confidence to do something about how he treats you. Do you have any friends who could stand up for you? Is it possible at all to just never ever be around him? At all? It’s unlikely that this guy is a pedophile and was attempting to grope the little girl, but if he was then it’s incredibly important that you do _something_. If you think you’re unprotected, naked and vulnerable, just imagine how the girl feels. Even if all you do is talk to her parents, you’ve got to do something. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2010, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-i-stand-up-for-this-little-girl-do-i-say-something/539648/39 "2010-05-16T22:51:23Z")
The OP says the lecher is her husband’s friend. I’m guessing he doesn’t know about Gropey McGroperson’s groping habits, or else why would he still be friends with him? If he does know about what this guy does but hasn’t broken off the relationship, the OP has bigger problems than what to do about this girl. I don’t think there’s much the OP can do about the girl that doesn’t have the potential to blow up in her face. If she puts in a call to the girl’s parents, odds are they will peg her as shit-stirring busybody who is jumping to conclusions. If she were closer to this family, I could see talking the girl and telling her that if someone touches her inappropriately she needs to let her parents know. But it seems like she’s a total stranger, so that kind of conversation would be out of line. ---
**Author:** ![NinetyWt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/cc9497/32.png) [@NinetyWt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NinetyWt)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2010, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-i-stand-up-for-this-little-girl-do-i-say-something/539648/40 "2010-05-16T22:55:47Z")
Her friend’s husband, not her husband’s friend. The OP’s friend is the lecher’s wife. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-i-stand-up-for-this-little-girl-do-i-say-something/539648.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-i-stand-up-for-this-little-girl-do-i-say-something/539648.md?page=3)