Do invisible pink unicorns exist ?

You merely assert that an object must exist because the concept of it exists. Why should I think that’s true? Where’s Egg-Boy? Where’s that brick you just got hit in the head with? Where’s god?

You answered your question… I’m imagining it, therefore it does exist.

Reread what you said it is all there. And again existence depends upon somthing existing, however the opposite is not true.

I know that my car exists. However to prove the existence of my car to myself or anyone else I need to show some empiracal proof of it. Different concept those two words… funny that way.

Okay, here we go. Hope you don’t mind a long read.

Existence, as it is used in everyday language, primarily means something actually (tangibly) exists. For intangible objects, this is more complex: does the First Amendment exist other than as a piece of paper?

If we are talking about a concept of a potentially existing physical object, there is nothing strange about saying that the concept exists but the actual object doesn’t. I have at this very moment a clear concept of a lifesize gold statue of myself, but I can assure you that the actual statue doesn’t exist, even though it would be entirely possible to create such a statue. Saying that the concept ‘exists’ is however somewhat odd, since existence is primarily used in connection to physical objects.

So we have two kinds of existence, which you should distinguish:
A. existence of objects, and
B. existence of concepts (of objects)

IPU’s lack A, but the concept of IPU has B. At least, that’s how it appears at first analysis.

If you don’t distinguish A and B, and go around applying questions relating to existence A on things having existence B, you are making a category mistake. There you go, a shiny new word for you to use. :slight_smile:

Now, if you’re ready, we can complicate things.

2.a.
The concept of Santa Claus exists, but does Santa Claus exist? Obviously not as a tangible jolly man with a beard, but in fact he does exist as a social phenomenon. So do we have an intermediate kind of existence? Not wanting to go too deep in this mess, I would leave it at pointing out that the answer depends on what ‘Santa Claus’ is supposed to refer to: a man or a social phenomenon.

2.b.
Do all concepts exist or are there preconditions? This is a tricky subject, which in fact depends on which precise philosophy of mind you adhere to.

Around the time of Spinoza and Locke there was, IIRC, discussion on whether incoherent ideas (= concepts) really existed. It was thought that if you really thought things through, you would only have coherent, non-contradictory concepts in your head, be wise and know all truth. From there on it was a tiny step to saying those incoherent concepts didn’t really exist (in your head), but where dream images, chimaera. In effect they transposed the whole appearance/reality metaphysics from the physical to the mental domain. (sorry for all the jargon)

I’m not going to rehash the whole debate, which is far too complicated to go over here. I’ll just state that I do not see why a contradictory or incoherent concept doesn’t in itself have existence when it is thought, even if it might disappear after close scrutiny. As long as you think about it, it exists.

2.c
Another take is that we rate concepts according to the possibility of their existence. But this is again a difficult road to travel. Time machines or perpetuum mobilea, as far as we know do not and cannot exist. They are, however, very much talked and though about. Cold fusion AFAIK doesn’t exist at the moment, but could in principle very well be possible.

So the concepts of these objects/phenomena are discussed and insofar these concepts do exist, but they have varying degrees of possibility of existence, at least for the scientist. Layman may not know the difference.

Hence the mere possibility of realization of the object that the concept refers to does not seem to be a good way to distinguish between kinds of concepts.

2.d
We can go a step further, though. We have seen that a concept that you are thinking of does have existence while being thought. Could you also speak of the concept having existence in itself, without someone thinking of it? This is more tricky. We are perilously close to Platonic heaven.

With mathematical concepts, people normally do not have much compunction of giving them a kind of existence of ‘stable’ concepts regardless of specific persons thinking about them. With really outrageous ones, like the gold statue I just mentioned, the existence is not much more than the existence of any fleeting image. So we seem to think implicitly in grades of existence, when applying this term to concepts.

Now how would the IPU rate? The problem with the concept is, and that may be the heart of your real problem, that it appears to be internally incoherent, hence the concept has a structural problem. The attribute ‘color’ is usually meant to refer to the actual color of something. ‘Invisible’, however, by definition refers to something not having any kind of visibility, which precludes it having color. So how can an object be both pink and invisible? The concept appears to be inherently flawed and for that reason, you could say, negates itself, doesnt’ ‘exist’. (I’m bypassing the problem of finding a unicorn in the first place)

In the OP you refer to a unicorn which is first made pink, then turned invisible. Wouldn’t that be an invisible pink unicorn? It depends. You are now using pink in a different sense than the common one. ‘Pink’ is usually refered to the actual color of something, not the color it might have if something changed with the object. IIRC most cars are first painted in grey or pink ground paint (base paint?), then sprayed over in their actual color. You surely wouldn’t call every car ‘pink’ for that reason? If we go by your definition, there indeed is not a problem with the idea of an invisible pink something. But that is not the common usage of the attribute ‘pink’.

Summarizing all this:

  • IPU’s as real objects don’t exist as far as we know.
  • IPU’s as concepts have the kind of existence we attribute to all mental images.
  • The concept of an IPU is internally incoherent, but I do not find that sufficient reason to deny them all existence. To do that you have to take recourse to a specific philosophy of mind, which must be defended on its own ground.

Whew. Do you now see why I didn’t answer straight away?

What range of the EM spectrum is the invisible unicorn invisible in? If it’s pink that would mean it must reflect visible light of a certain wavelength? How many hands tall is it? Does it like sugar lumps? Does it cry when it’s upset and smile when it’s happy? Can it fall in love? Does it prefer it when it’s rainy or when it’s sunny? At what end of the poitcal spectrum does it lie? Does it take the bus? What’s it postion on the EMU? When it gets wet does it shrink?

Wrong again JS both of your definitions are incorrect. This must be clear before we can go into what I really am talking about.

Websters defines exist as the following.

Main Entry: ex·ist
Pronunciation: ig-'zist
Function: intransitive verb
Etymology: Latin exsistere to come into being, exist, from ex- + sistere to stand, stop; akin to Latin stare to stand – more at STAND
Date: 1602
1 a : to have real being whether material or spiritual <did unicorns exist> <the largest galaxy known to exist> b : to have being in a specified place or with respect to understood limitations or conditions

Your definition was incomplete : to have real being whether material or spiritual. Or to have being in a specific place or with respect to understood limitations or conditions… Hence in yer mind… Notice also exist is a Verb

Now onto Existence:

Main Entry: ex·is·tence
Pronunciation: ig-'zis-t&n(t)s
Function: noun
Date: 14th century
1 a obsolete : reality as opposed to appearance b : reality as presented in experience c (1) : the totality of existent things (2) : a particular being <all the fair existences of heaven – John Keats> d : sentient or living being : LIFE
2 a : the state or fact of having being especially independently of human consciousness and as contrasted with nonexistence b : the manner of being that is common to every mode of being c : being with respect to a limiting condition or under a particular aspect

The state of being especially independantly of human consciousness… Therefore thoughts or concepts don’t count here.

Get it.

couldn’t we extend this argument to the esxtent that we can assert that everything imaginable exists, whether or not we imagine it, just because imagining it is not impossible.

Imagining the IPU means that ‘the concept exists’, but this doesn’t iply that the thing has any kind of independence, persistence or objective existence.

What happens when you get distracted and stop thinking about the IPU; does it cease to exist?

To Qoute Tusculan " So we have two kinds of existence, which you should distinguish:
A. existence of objects, and
B. existence of concepts (of objects)

IPU’s lack A, but the concept of IPU has B. At least, that’s how it appears at first analysis.

If you don’t distinguish A and B, and go around applying questions relating to existence A on things having existence B, you are making a category mistake. There you go, a shiny new word for you to use. "

Now onto Category Mistake : A category mistake arises from fallacious reasoning about different logical categories. For example, the question “What does blue smell like?” is a category mistake. Blue is a color that is sensed by the eye while an odor is a sensed by the nose. Blue belongs to the category of colors while odors belong to the category of smells. Therefore, blue is not in the category of smell.

However I do not see the need to discuss your “Strawman” ( I learned that new big word all on my own…)

As you can see from what I have written I am not discussing existence.

I have tried over and over again to clarify this… I am right now having a thought of my beautiful wife. I hope nobody here wants refute that this thought EXISTS in my head. However if any of you wanted me to prove the existence of that thought you could only take my word for it because I can not produce evidence.

I don’t care if we want to throw the dictionary away . . . I merely use it because it provides a consistant vocabulary for our discussion. After all we could have this discussion in the vernacular and then nobody would have any idea what anyone else was refering to.

I don’t think there’s anything to debate here.

You say the concept of your wife exists in your mind? Okay. Since no one here is a mind reader and can find evidence to contradict you, we’ll have to assume your honesty and believe the concept exists in your mind. So what’s the debate?

Now, if you want to prove to us your wife physically exists, then we will require some proof of her physicality. But that’s not the same thing you’re proving above; e.g., “your wife” != “concept of your wife”.

Correct R.J.

Now on to my real point.

1-If “X” exists as a concept, “X” exists.
2-“X” does exist as a concept.
3-Therefore, “X” exists

X=nothing

Definition of nothing

Main Entry: nothing
Function: noun
Date: 1535
1 a : something that does not exist
How can this be ?

Given sufficiently advanced monitoring equipment and a fuller understanding of the workings of the human brain, you could produce the needed evidence.

However, I’m still a bit confused as to what the whole point of this discussion is. The IPU does not exist. People’s thoughts about the IPU exist, but those thought are not the IPU.

When you say physical object x exists, people generally assume you mean it physically exists, it has actual physical form. As others has pointed out, this is entirely different from saying the concept of x exists.

In fact saying that the concept of x exists is meaningless. As soon as you have produced a certain concept, obviously it exists as a concept, and the statement that is exists contains no information.

Again, saying that X exists as a concept **doesn’t mean that X itself exists **. The concept of nothing exists, noone would argue with that. That does’t mean nothing exists, as by definition it is the absence of anything. I fail to see the confusion here.

People assume wrong… Use any dictionary you want a concept does exist.

You agree with me " As soon as you have produced a certain concept, obviously it exists as a concept"

to have real being whether material or spiritual <did unicorns exist> <the largest galaxy known to exist> b : to have being in a specified place or with respect to understood limitations or conditions

To have being in a specified place ( my mind ) or with respect to understood limitations or conditions. ( I am conscious )

Find the flaw in the formula I presented ? Or find a flaw in the definition ?

I don’t believe you can do either.

Yet again I turn to the dictionary

Absence= the state of being absent

Main Entry: ab·sent
Pronunciation: 'ab-sent
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French, from Latin absent-, absens, present participle of abesse to be absent, from ab- + esse to be – more at IS
Date: 14th century
1 : not present or attending : MISSING
2 : not existing : LACKING <danger in a situation where power is absent – M. H. Trytten>
NOT EXISTING

Just another way of saying nothing…

You are once again confusing the idea with the object. A picture of the Grand Canyon is not the Grand Canion itself. It is merely a representation. You thoughts of the IPU are not the IPU itself. They are merely a representation.

Thus, you cannot validly say that the IPU exists in your mind. It doesn’t. Your thoughts of the IPU exist in your mind. The difference is significant.

As others have pointed out, this is the flaw in your argument. Or, in mathematical terms,

exist(concept(x)) != exist(x)

I am right now thinking of myself as a playboy multi-billionare, with a sexy blonde on my arm. While this concept exists in my mind, the reality does not (unless she and my money are hiding under the desk… nope, not there).

No the Idea is the object… you had me for a moment… I have concieved the IPU. That conception is the thought, not the IPU.

to think the thoughts of the IPU I must first concieve the IPU from this I develope a conception of the IPU therefore the IPU is a concept.

I think that is correct, however just to clarify here is the definition of concept.
Main Entry: con·cept
Pronunciation: 'kän-"sept
Function: noun
Etymology: Latin conceptum, neuter of conceptus, past participle of concipere to conceive – more at CONCEIVE
Date: 1556
1 : something conceived in the mind : THOUGHT, NOTION
2 : an abstract or generic idea generalized from particular instances
synonym see IDEA
Notice Thought does appear in the definition.

That should clarify a thought is a concept.

R.J. again someone is trying to confuse the facts. The definition of exist or exists does not have anything to do with reality.

Real means:
having objective independent existence

Something can exist without existence

I think you’re starting to drift very far from the original topic, now. Let me quote your original post:

The IPU does not exist. Conceptions and thoughts concerning an abstract concept that you may choose to label the IPU exist. However, and actual, physical IPU does not exist.

Being able to conceptualize something does not cause that something to exist. Conceptualizing something merely causes your thoughts to exist.

Let me give a demonstration. I can conceive another moon orbiting the earth. I can think about this second moon quite easily. However, there is no second moon. I was able to form a concept of something that does not exist.
Now, I’m really having a difficult time figuring out what your point in this thread is. If you just wanted to understand how something can not exist, well, I just gave a demonstration. Did I correctly understand your question?

Why do I get the feeling we’re being played with?

O_o tried to play with us. Where is he now?

Are invisible pink unicorns existentialists?