# Do Iraqi's really want freedom? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 9, 2004, 11:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-iraqis-really-want-freedom/239154 "2004-04-09T11:08:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![iamme99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/57b2e6/32.png) [@iamme99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamme99)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2004, 11:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-iraqis-really-want-freedom/239154/1 "2004-04-09T11:08:12Z")
I was watching Joe Scarborough tonight and he was talking about a disconnect between the rising violence in Iraq compared to the polls taken over there which show that the majority don’t hate America and that they are happy to be free of Sadamm. This gave me pause for thought. If the Iraqi people truly want us to help them, if they truly want freedom, if they truly want to put their country back together again, then they are going to have to show some heart. As I see it, the problem is that the Iraqi’s HAVE TO LEARN TO STAND UP FOR WHAT THEY SUPPOSEDLY BELIEVE IN. If they truly want democracy, then they are going to have to fight for it, like we did! They have to be willing to put their lives on the line against the militants. They are going to have to attack the militants and remove them from their society. But I don’t see evidence of this, instead they mostly seem to run and hide, letting the militants freely operate from within. There are 25 million people in Iraq but they are letting 100-500k militants take control of their lives. Until I see some evidence of the average Iraqi standing up to the militants, turning them in to the authorities or outright killing them themselves, I can only believe that we and this supposed majority are destined to fail. You can’t force a democracy on a country where the people don’t want it bad enough to die for it. What thinks you? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2004, 11:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-iraqis-really-want-freedom/239154/2 "2004-04-09T11:28:05Z")
**iamme:** _a disconnect between the rising violence in Iraq compared to the polls taken over there which show that the majority don’t hate America and that they are happy to be free of Sadamm._ Why is this necessarily a “disconnect” or contradiction? It seems perfectly plausible to me that a majority of Iraqis don’t hate America _per se_ and are glad, and even grateful, that we deposed Saddam Hussein, but nonetheless don’t want us running their country. _If the Iraqi people truly want us to help them, if they truly want freedom, if they truly want to put their country back together again […]_ That implies that we (the US) **will** in fact “help them” to attain “freedom” and “put their country back together again.” Many Iraqis, of course, are very skeptical about our motives and don’t believe that we **want** to help them to freedom and stability, but rather that we’re interested in using their country as a power base and oil supply. Now, the Iraqis may be wrong about this—they’d be wrong to assume it about me personally, for example, and I hope that many other Americans feel the same as I do—but it’s not hard to see how they might have gotten that impression, what with one thing and another. _As I see it, the problem is that the Iraqi’s HAVE TO LEARN TO STAND UP FOR WHAT THEY SUPPOSEDLY BELIEVE IN. If they truly want democracy, then they are going to have to fight for it, like we did!_ Well, what “we did” was to declare our independence and fight a long-drawn-out war against the occupying troops of an imperial power that wanted to maintain colonial dominance over us. You might want to rethink that analogy. \*They have to be willing to put their lives on the line against the militants. They are going to have to attack the militants and remove them from their society. \* I think the name for that, on the scale that would be required to achieve it in present-day Iraq, is “civil war”. I agree with you that the Iraqis should be willing to struggle to achieve freedom, peace, and independence. However, I don’t see why they should knock themselves out for the sake of (what they believe to be, at least) a puppet government that will essentially be running their country for the ultimate benefit of a foreign superpower, even if they might experience some positive side effects from it. ---
**Author:** ![WernhamHogg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a587f6/32.png) [@WernhamHogg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WernhamHogg)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2004, 11:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-iraqis-really-want-freedom/239154/3 "2004-04-09T11:31:19Z")
What you really want to ask is, do Iraqis really want a KFC franchise in downtown Baghdad? The answer is “no,” hence the problem. They’re glad SH is gone, but they don’t want to be a US colony. Also, do Iraqis really want to be occupied by an extraneous apostrophe? ---
**Author:** ![Eolbo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d07c76/32.png) [@Eolbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eolbo)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2004, 12:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-iraqis-really-want-freedom/239154/4 "2004-04-09T12:04:34Z")
> [@iamme99](#): > > … As I see it, the problem is that the Iraqi’s HAVE TO LEARN TO STAND UP FOR WHAT THEY SUPPOSEDLY BELIEVE IN… > [@Kimstu](#): > > … I agree with you that the Iraqis should be willing to struggle to achieve freedom, peace, and independence… Ever considered that if we asked the insurgents they would tell us that that is exactly what they are currently doing? ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2004, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-iraqis-really-want-freedom/239154/5 "2004-04-09T12:49:48Z")
Some people seem to have a hard time understanding the Iraqis do not want to be governed by GWB. I do not understand why because a lot of Americans don’t want to be governed by GWB. I hear an anecdote that President Reagan was talking with the Japanese premier and saying Japan should buy more American cars and the Japanese premier answered to the effect that why should the Japanese buy American cars when even the Americans were not buying American cars. Some people just do not seem to understand that, just because they like something it does not mean everybody else likes it or wants it. It is this kind of ignorance which leads to wars like this. The notion that Iraqis would want what Americans like. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2004, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-iraqis-really-want-freedom/239154/6 "2004-04-09T13:40:47Z")
Interestingly enough, according to the [Arab Human Development Report from 2003](http://www.undp.org/rbas/ahdr/ahdr2/english/Englishcomplete2003.pdf).pdf (p19), **the view that democracy is the best form of government and a dislike for autocracies are more widely held in the Arab countries than in the US** /Can/Aus/NZ. I think that the “disconnect” is where the idea that American interests are convergent with Iraqi interests. I’ve reason to believe that many Iraqis think that the US is in Iraq to promote US interests rather than to promote Iraqi interests. This leads me to suspect that Iraqis don’t see foreign troops occupying their country, and a foreign government allocating their resources and creating their laws as a helpful pre-condition for their goals. It seems that there is a _fundamental_ “disconnect” between the idea that Iraqis haven’t shown “some heart,” and the idea that they’re currently willing to die for what they’re trying to do. YMMV. ---
**Author:** ![ccwaterback](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/df705f/32.png) [@ccwaterback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ccwaterback)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2004, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-iraqis-really-want-freedom/239154/7 "2004-04-09T13:43:41Z")
So it almost seems that the Iraqis intend to be fractious nation, they want to disagree with each other, they want to have conflict in their country. It’s all about MY religious ideals are right, and yours are wrong. There is NO negotiation, no compromise, we disagree, we kill each other. ---
**Author:** ![Reeder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Reeder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reeder)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2004, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-iraqis-really-want-freedom/239154/8 "2004-04-09T14:53:12Z")
All most of the Iraqi’s want is to be able to live their lives, raise their children, go to work, worship their God. Without worrying about them or their loved ones dying. In other words live a normal life. Can they do that now? They don’t really care about freedom or democracy. They just want to live in peace. ---
**Author:** ![Avenger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9de0a6/32.png) [@Avenger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Avenger)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2004, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-iraqis-really-want-freedom/239154/9 "2004-04-09T14:54:30Z")
Did you even _read_ any of the replies? ---
**Author:** ![Avenger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9de0a6/32.png) [@Avenger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Avenger)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2004, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-iraqis-really-want-freedom/239154/10 "2004-04-09T15:01:27Z")
Question was for CCWaterback. ---
**Author:** ![ccwaterback](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/df705f/32.png) [@ccwaterback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ccwaterback)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2004, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-iraqis-really-want-freedom/239154/11 "2004-04-09T15:58:10Z")
> [@Avenger](#): > > Did you even _read_ any of the replies? Not sure what you are getting at. The replies I read seem to have the same old “Iraqis want to be like Americans” routine. I don’t agree. Priorities of an American: Food and shelter. Material goods. Entertainment. Priorities of an Iraqi: Food and shelter. Kill everyone who’s religious ideals differ from mine. Now I don’t believe ALL Iraqis think this way, but enough of them seem to. ---
**Author:** ![Olentzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90ced4/32.png) [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2004, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-iraqis-really-want-freedom/239154/12 "2004-04-09T16:01:38Z")
When you see news reports like [this](http://news.com.au/common/story_page/0,4057,9231707%255E1702,00.html) that say > [@](#): > > THOUSANDS of **Sunni and Shi’ite Muslims** forced their way through US military checkpoints today to ferry food and medical supplies to the besieged Sunni bastion of Fallujah where US Marines are trying to crush insurgents. and a [demonstration](http://www.indybay.org/news/2004/03/1674128_comment.php) in Baghdad is highlighted by actual unity, and calls for greater unity, between Shi’ite and Sunni Muslims in Iraq, the argument that they want civil war and are ready to tear each other to pieces if the US withdraws, falls completely flat. The Iraqis aren’t going to stand up to the militants because _they want the US out just as much as the militants do_. There’s an ABC News poll I read about that asked Iraqis a number of questions about the situation a year after the invasion begun; I’m studying the numbers in-depth but a couple items are telling. Firstly, when asked what kind of government they preferred, 49% of the Iraqis polled (just over 2,700 total, broken down into 79% Arab, 17% Kurdish, and 4% other nationalities) chose “democracy” over 28% for a strong leader ‘for life’ and 21% for an Islamic state. People certainly think that things are better, but they place far more trust in Iraqi religious leaders (70%) than they do in US and UK forces (25%). And exactly half the people polled chose either an Iraqi government (33%) or the Iraqi people (17%) as the people or organizations who should have responsibility for the priorities of rebuilding the country. Most people neither trusted nor distrusted a list of local and national leaders when asked, but the person most people distrust completely is Ahmed Chalabi. Thought it is true 47% of Iraqis think a strong leader is necessary in the short term (ie the next 12 months), the support for a democracy in five years is 42%. And though 36% of those polled think the United States should have a role in the rebuilding of Iraq (tied with Japan), 51% either strongly oppose or oppose somewhat the presence of coalition forces in Iraq. I think it’s pretty clear: Iraqis don’t support the occupation. They want to rebuild their country themselves, of course with outside help, but my guess is it would be more in the form of economic and social aid than a military presence. Here is a [link](http://www.abcnews.go.com/sections/world/GoodMorningAmerica/Iraq_anniversary_poll_040314.html) to the poll on the ABCNews site, and there is a link to a PDF of the report, with the full questionnaire, at the bottom. ---
**Author:** ![ccwaterback](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/df705f/32.png) [@ccwaterback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ccwaterback)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2004, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-iraqis-really-want-freedom/239154/13 "2004-04-09T16:16:20Z")
A poll of 2,700 out of 25,000,000? The results of this polls like that are negligible. ---
**Author:** ![skarf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/958977/32.png) [@skarf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/skarf)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2004, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-iraqis-really-want-freedom/239154/14 "2004-04-09T16:25:19Z")
Hi, I’ve been lurking for quite awhile now and I’m going to try to post a little before this membership expires. Having seen the quality of the posts made in this board I must say that I’m quite reserved in joining this thread. I hope this is enough to explaination should I ever find myself in a quagmire. **iamme99:** I would like to direct you to this passage: _“[Meanwhile, tribal leaders in Kut – apparently disgusted with the violence incited by radical Shiite Muslim cleric Muqtada al-Sadr – have fought with his milita and plan to hand the southern Iraqi city over to U.S. forces, an American-led coalition source close to the situation said Friday.](http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/04/09/iraq.main/index.html)”_ This may not fulfill your need for _“evidence of the average Iraqi standing up to the militants, turning them in to the authorities or outright killing them themselves,”_ but if the Iraq’s own security forces are beginning to take things into their own hands, and things are quieting down, we may not need the average Iraqi doing what you’d like them to do. I think it’s better that way too - it establishes lawfulness. _I can only believe that we and this supposed majority are destined to fail. You can’t force a democracy on a country where the people don’t want it bad enough to die for it._ There are Iraqis willing to die for democracy. They can be found in their new army. I don’t think we’re forcing them into a democracy as in outright ironfist coercion. It’s like saying we’re forcing a musician who loves to play music, to play music. And if we put a gun up to him and say, “stop playing,” do you think he should not be allowed to play if he doesn’t fight you? **Kimstu:** _However, I don’t see why they should knock themselves out for the sake of (what they believe to be, at least) a puppet government that will essentially be running their country for the ultimate benefit of a foreign superpower, even if they might experience some positive side effects from it._ This is a slight nit-pick, but it does bother me that you would (or Iraqis would) say there is a puppet government in place. IMHO Bremer looks like he’s doing everything on his own there. He’s asking for funding and assistance when he needs it of course, but I doubt Bush is micromanaging him like a puppet. If you’re talking about what the government will be in the future - well I don’t think we nor the Iraqis will know whether or not it will be puppet until the details of it are released, and after the elections take place a year later. Until then it’s speculation. **skutir** _What you really want to ask is, do Iraqis really want a KFC franchise in downtown Baghdad? The answer is “no,” hence the problem. They’re glad SH is gone, but they don’t want to be a US colony._ What you can also ask is, would Iraqis like to see a Baghdad Fried Lamb franchise in downtown Baghdad, or Riyadh, or Abu Dabhi, or Tokyo, London… New York? You’re right, no one wants Iraq to be a US colony. I doubt Iraq is going to turn into one. I certainly hope not, if it comes down to hoping. Has the US ever colonized any nation since World War II though? **eolbo:** _Ever considered that if we asked the insurgents they would tell us that that is exactly what they are currently doing?_ Just curious, do you think that justifies their actions? If so, why? If not, do you have any points to make? **sailor:** _I hear an anecdote that President Reagan was talking with the Japanese premier and saying Japan should buy more American cars and the Japanese premier answered to the effect that why should the Japanese buy American cars when even the Americans were not buying American cars._ Japan hasn’t had any revolutions or coups since we left them after World War II right? If this is true this shows that democracy can happen in places of foreign cultures while bringing tremendous prosperity. Iraq already has a head start with its oil supply. We just need to make sure the security issue is settled soon, which, probably contrary to your beliefs, can still be salvaged. _Some people just do not seem to understand that, just because they like something it does not mean everybody else likes it or wants it._ Read your anecdote again. I think one thing we get out of it is that Americans and Japanese don’t buy American cars. Doesn’t that mean we have the same tastes as the Japanese, which means _gasp_ there’s always a majority of people who do like the same things? Anyway, it’s true that people have different preferences over different things, after all that’s why we have so many different political systems and favorite colors. You’re right about that and I understand you there. I do, however, want to address those undertones claiming that Iraqis don’t want a democracy. As **iamme99** has said, there seems to be more support in Iraq for democracy than many of us believe. _It is this kind of ignorance which leads to wars like this. The notion that Iraqis would want what Americans like._ If we want Iraqis to have what we have, we wouldn’t be giving sovereignty, we wouldn’t be encouraging them to take charge, we wouldn’t be giving them their own government. It was expressed to us that the Iraqis wanted a change through various opposition groups and accounts on the ground (if you really. really need a cite, say so). I also think that democracy was not the only reason we went into this war. There are many others and hopefully, to this administration and the coming administration (if it should be different), good reasons. _ignorance leads to wars_ I agree, and I think that applies to all factions involved. In this case - the U.S., Saddam, the opposition groups, the Iraqi people. That doesn’t make a war more or less necessary though. Anyway, all I really want to say is that there are Iraqis who care enough to fight for democracy and I suppose that answers the OP’s question. Argh, new posts. I think they support the fact that Iraqis want democracy. **Reeder:** _All most of the Iraqi’s want is to be able to live their lives, raise their children, go to work, worship their God. Without worrying about them or their loved ones dying. In other words live a normal life._ We’re trying the hardest we can to give them this, and more. If we withdrawal, that’s not going to happen for a LONG time. **ccwaterback:** _So it almost seems that the Iraqis intend to be fractious nation, they want to disagree with each other, they want to have conflict in their country. It’s all about MY religious ideals are right, and yours are wrong. There is NO negotiation, no compromise, we disagree, we kill each other._ Not all of them. Only a few who we really need to subdue. _A poll of 2,700 out of 25,000,000? The results of this polls like that are negligible._ Would you prefer no poll at all? WOOOO i’m done. post! ---
**Author:** ![ccwaterback](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/df705f/32.png) [@ccwaterback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ccwaterback)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2004, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-iraqis-really-want-freedom/239154/15 "2004-04-09T16:36:55Z")
**Skrf** : Would you prefer no poll at all? I certainly would prefer no poll at all, as opposed to a shelf-fulfilling US propaganda poll. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2004, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-iraqis-really-want-freedom/239154/16 "2004-04-09T16:38:03Z")
> [@ccwaterback](#): > > A poll of 2,700 out of 25,000,000? The results of this polls like that are negligible. Cite, please. Polls of the US routinely use samples as small or even smaller. So why should the results of a poll of a country a tenth the size of the US be “negligible?” ---
**Author:** ![ccwaterback](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/df705f/32.png) [@ccwaterback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ccwaterback)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2004, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-iraqis-really-want-freedom/239154/17 "2004-04-09T16:42:40Z")
**Skarf** : Not all of them. Only a few who we really need to subdue. If you mean serval million by a “few”, then yeah, I agree. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2004, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-iraqis-really-want-freedom/239154/18 "2004-04-09T16:43:27Z")
> [@ccwaterback](#): > > I certainly would prefer no poll at all, as opposed to a shelf-fulfilling US propaganda poll. Not to encourage this hair-splitting for much longer, but why do you say the poll is US propaganda, given that it reports 51% of Iraqis are opposed to the occupation? ---
**Author:** ![ccwaterback](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/df705f/32.png) [@ccwaterback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ccwaterback)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2004, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-iraqis-really-want-freedom/239154/19 "2004-04-09T16:47:24Z")
> [@SimonX](#): > > Cite, please. > > Polls of the US routinely use samples as small or even smaller. So why should the results of a poll of a country a tenth the size of the US be “negligible?” I would think if you poll less than 1% of your population the statistics you derive would be irrelevant for a basis of any conclusion. I’m not an expert in sample statistics, but this just seems like common sense to me. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2004, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-iraqis-really-want-freedom/239154/20 "2004-04-09T16:50:35Z")
> [@skutir](#): > > What you really want to ask is, do Iraqis really want a KFC franchise in downtown Baghdad? The answer is “no,” hence the problem. They’re glad SH is gone, but they don’t want to be a US colony. > > Also, do Iraqis really want to be occupied by an extraneous apostrophe? Iraqi’s don’t want to be a colony, certainly. But they do want to rejoin the world community, achieve the prosperity that is their due, and use that prosperity to buy modern goods and services. KFC is popular in Kuwait, Bahrain, Saudi Arabia, Oman, and Qatar. They did well in Iran, too, prior to the 1979 revolution. If Iraqis want American fried chicken (and they probably will, it is, after all, pretty tasty) there’s no reason they shouldn’t have it. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-iraqis-really-want-freedom/239154.md?page=2)