# Do jet fighters have rear-view and side-view mirrors? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 9, 2014, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-jet-fighters-have-rear-view-and-side-view-mirrors/697923 "2014-09-09T01:36:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2014, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-jet-fighters-have-rear-view-and-side-view-mirrors/697923/21 "2014-09-09T17:07:06Z")
> [@lazybratsche](#): > > How relevant is that in modern combat? I could see it being necessary up to the Vietnam war, when there were still a substantial number of dogfights and gun kills. Especially in the F-4 which had lousy visibility to the rear. But with modern radar and missiles, most engagements would be fought far beyond visual range, let alone “visible in tiny rearview mirror” range. That was the thinking at the outset of the Vietnam war, and in the early years of the war the Navy air combat kill ratio was 3.7:1. With the advent of [USN Fighter Weapons School (AKA Top Gun),](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Navy_Fighter_Weapons_School) which taught advanced air combat maneuvering skills, the kill ratio went up to 13:1 before the end of the war. ACM is still imporant for fighter aircraft. ISTR that in the 1990 competition between the [YF-22](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/YF-22) and [YF-23](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/YF-23), the YF-22 was less stealthy but was ultimately selected for production because of its superior ACM agility. ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2014, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-jet-fighters-have-rear-view-and-side-view-mirrors/697923/22 "2014-09-09T17:08:38Z")
> [@Richard\_Pearse](#): > > I’ve been looking for them on F-16s but can’t see them. There’s no canopy frame to mount them on. They may not have them, but the lack of a canopy frame wouldn’t be the reason. If they really wanted mirrors, they’d find a way to attach them, either gluing/screwing them directly to the canopy or installing a metal hoop or stanchion on which to mount them. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2014, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-jet-fighters-have-rear-view-and-side-view-mirrors/697923/23 "2014-09-09T19:10:21Z")
> [@chacoguy](#): > > Okay, what about commercial jets? None I’ve ever seen or heard of. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2014, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-jet-fighters-have-rear-view-and-side-view-mirrors/697923/24 "2014-09-09T19:20:47Z")
> [@chacoguy](#): > > Okay, what about commercial jets? They do tend to keep getting wider aft of the cockpit, making a pretty big blind spot for a mirror. But mainly, normally nobody’s trying to shoot them down. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 9:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-jet-fighters-have-rear-view-and-side-view-mirrors/697923/25 "2014-09-10T09:02:28Z")
> [@lazybratsche](#): > > How relevant is that in modern combat? I could see it being necessary up to the Vietnam war, when there were still a substantial number of dogfights and gun kills. Especially in the F-4 which had lousy visibility to the rear. But with modern radar and missiles, most engagements would be fought far beyond visual range, let alone “visible in tiny rearview mirror” range. They’ve been saying that forever, and as **JRDelirious** noted the F-4 was originally not equipped with a gun at all, so firm was the conviction that most engagements would be at BVR with radar guided missiles and the AIM-9 Sidewinder would be enough for any rare dogfight-ish situations. This of course proved not to be the case, and the F-4 was quickly fitted with a 20mm Vulcan and emphasis was placed back on teaching [basic fighter manuevering](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_fighter_maneuvers). During Desert Storm in 1991, in spite of all of the advances in technology, not the least of which was positive control of intercepts by E-3 AWACS aircraft which could track everything in their airspace and removed the need to make a positive visual ID of the target before engaging with BVR missiles (in Vietnam the usual method was for one plane to make a high speed pass on full afterburners to confirm the target as hostile to his wingman), a substantial number of engagements involved dogfighting and kills made with AIM-9s. In perhaps the most interesting air-to-air engagement of the war, [an unarmed EF-111 made a kill against an Iraqi Mirage F-1](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_engagements_of_the_Gulf_War#17_January_1991): > [@](#): > > USAF EF-111 vs. IRAF Mirage F-1 > On the first night of the war, Captain Brent Brandon was flying his EF-111 “Spark Vark” on an electronic warfare mission ahead of a group of jets on a bombing run. Several IRAF Dassault Mirage F1s came in and engaged the flight. One of them went after the unarmed EF-111. Captain Brandon executed a tight turn and launched chaff to avoid the missiles being fired by the Mirage. A F-15 on the same flight, piloted by Robert Graeter, went after the Mirage trying to protect the EF-111. The Mirage launched a missile which the Raven avoided by launching chaff. Captain Brandon decided to head for the deck to try to evade his pursuer. As he went down he pulled up to avoid the ground, the Mirage followed him through, though the Mirage went straight into the ground. An unarmed EF-111 thus scored an air-air victory against a Dassault Mirage F1, although Graeter was credited with a kill. The EF-111A pilots won the Distinguished Flying Cross. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-jet-fighters-have-rear-view-and-side-view-mirrors/697923/26 "2014-09-10T12:16:46Z")
> [@Richard\_Pearse](#): > > I’ve been looking for them on F-16s but can’t see them. There’s no canopy frame to mount them on. I believe the pilot seat of the F-16 also sits higher in the cockpit than is usual, specifically to provide for better fields of vision out of that big plastic bubble of a cockpit - it was always meant to be an all-up-in-your-shit close-range dogfighter plane, so anything to facilitate rubbernecking and keeping one’s target in view at all times. ---
**Author:** ![StrangerThanFiction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f05b48/32.png) [@StrangerThanFiction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StrangerThanFiction)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-jet-fighters-have-rear-view-and-side-view-mirrors/697923/27 "2014-09-10T13:07:18Z")
> [@chacoguy](#): > > Okay, what about commercial jets? While not technically a commercial jet, the Gulfstream G-IV has a small convex mirror mounted at each cockpit side window. Their purpose is to allow the crew to verify the movement of the spoilers during a preflight check, as there is no cockpit indication of the spoiler position. While I suppose one could see an aircraft approaching from behind with these tiny convex mirrors, you would have to be staring at the mirror at just the right time to notice anything at all. Even then, good luck doing anything about it… Visible here: [https://www.claylacy.com/sites/default/files/25\_19\_74\_giv\_sp\_cockpit.jpg](https://www.claylacy.com/sites/default/files/25_19_74_giv_sp_cockpit.jpg) They did away with the mirrors on the G-V, and instead added a synoptic that shows the position of all flight control surfaces, similar to this: [http://code7700.com/images/g450\_flight\_controls\_synoptic.png](http://code7700.com/images/g450_flight_controls_synoptic.png) ---
**Author:** ![nizzle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/8baadc/32.png) [@nizzle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nizzle)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-jet-fighters-have-rear-view-and-side-view-mirrors/697923/28 "2014-09-10T13:33:42Z")
> [@Richard\_Pearse](#): > > [http://youtu.be/Kq7dqIHsH3k?t=3m57s](http://youtu.be/Kq7dqIHsH3k?t=3m57s) > > Mirrors on an F-18, apparently used for the pilot to check how cool he looks. It helps to know how cool you look in a dog fight 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2014, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-jet-fighters-have-rear-view-and-side-view-mirrors/697923/29 "2014-09-10T14:22:40Z")
> [@Duckster](#): > > “Objects in (the) mirror are closer than they appear.” But only _very_ briefly. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2014, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-jet-fighters-have-rear-view-and-side-view-mirrors/697923/30 "2014-11-07T17:54:38Z")
Just saw [this](http://i.imgur.com/Ch9yiqC.jpg). Are these them? What jet is this? ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2014, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-jet-fighters-have-rear-view-and-side-view-mirrors/697923/31 "2014-11-07T18:05:44Z")
Well the one in the goggle reflection is an IDS Tornado (recognizable by its fuckhueg vertical stab) so one can probably assume the selfie-taking pilot is flying one too. ---
**Author:** ![HipGnosis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/76d3ee/32.png) [@HipGnosis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HipGnosis)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2014, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-jet-fighters-have-rear-view-and-side-view-mirrors/697923/32 "2014-11-07T18:53:44Z")
> [@lazybratsche](#): > > How relevant is that in modern combat? I could see it being necessary up to the Vietnam war, when there were still a substantial number of dogfights and gun kills. Especially in the F-4 which had lousy visibility to the rear. But with modern radar and missiles, most engagements would be fought far beyond visual range, let alone “visible in tiny rearview mirror” range. Not only relevant in combat. Also handy when flying in loose formation. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2014, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-jet-fighters-have-rear-view-and-side-view-mirrors/697923/33 "2014-11-07T23:51:10Z")
> [@Leo\_Bloom](#): > > Just saw [this](http://i.imgur.com/Ch9yiqC.jpg). Are these them? What jet is this? Wait, so what am I looking at reflecting off the upper curve of his face shield? ---
**Author:** ![bob\_2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bob_2/32/3341_2.png) [@bob\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bob_2)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2014, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-jet-fighters-have-rear-view-and-side-view-mirrors/697923/34 "2014-11-07T23:58:46Z")
Why would they need mirrors - they don’t have pilots these days. ---
**Author:** ![GusNSpot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gusnspot/32/436_2.png) [@GusNSpot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GusNSpot)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2014, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-jet-fighters-have-rear-view-and-side-view-mirrors/697923/35 "2014-11-08T06:32:13Z")
On twins I flew regular I kept little wide angle mirrors on the engine nacelles so I see exactly what the gear was doing. Older aircraft would sometimes lie to me. Had a few days get plumb exciting and I was very glad I could see what the problem was. ---
**Author:** ![Precambrianmollusc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/precambrianmollusc/32/63_2.png) [@Precambrianmollusc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Precambrianmollusc)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2014, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-jet-fighters-have-rear-view-and-side-view-mirrors/697923/36 "2014-11-08T06:50:54Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Well the one in the goggle reflection is an IDS Tornado (recognizable by its fuckhueg vertical stab) so one can probably assume the selfie-taking pilot is flying one too. Back in Gulf War One, a British Tornado was shot down after failing to release its bombs on a low level strike on an airfield. The pilot and weapons dude ejected, were captured, and eventually released. In the interviews with the pilots afterwards, I distinctly remember one of them saying that, after they were hit, they saw the flames crawling up the aircraft in the rear view mirrors attached to the canopy support ( which would be the mirrors in that pic) , at that point the decided to exit stage upwards. So useful for spotting both enemy aircraft, and imminent unplanned energetic disassembly of the aircraft. ---
**Author:** ![Precambrianmollusc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/precambrianmollusc/32/63_2.png) [@Precambrianmollusc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Precambrianmollusc)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2014, 7:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-jet-fighters-have-rear-view-and-side-view-mirrors/697923/37 "2014-11-08T07:12:50Z")
Found the video here [![]( " - YouTube") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zf5gv2Dr83I) At about 3:10 the pilot confirms the Tornado has a big tail fin, well, it should have had. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2014, 8:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-jet-fighters-have-rear-view-and-side-view-mirrors/697923/38 "2014-11-08T08:46:02Z")
> [@Leo\_Bloom](#): > > Wait, so what am I looking at reflecting off the upper curve of his face shield? Those are rearview mirrors. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2014, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-jet-fighters-have-rear-view-and-side-view-mirrors/697923/39 "2014-11-08T22:55:53Z")
> [@Leo\_Bloom](#): > > Wait, so what am I looking at reflecting off the upper curve of his face shield? Just to be super-explicit \*pace \ ***Richard Pearse** … **Leo** , you’re looking at the front of the movable canopy where it mates with the back of the fixed windshield. That’s the hemi-circular dark band. And mounted on it are 3 crescent- or kidney-shaped rear view mirrors. One at top center, and one on each side at about the 2:30 and 9:30 positions. ---
**Author:** ![DingoelGringo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9d8465/32.png) [@DingoelGringo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DingoelGringo)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2014, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-jet-fighters-have-rear-view-and-side-view-mirrors/697923/40 "2014-11-09T01:17:39Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > My first impulse is to ask if they have a reverse gear. 😃 Or air brakes! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-jet-fighters-have-rear-view-and-side-view-mirrors/697923.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-jet-fighters-have-rear-view-and-side-view-mirrors/697923.md?page=3)