Do Jewish and Islamic dietary laws have anything in common?

I’m sorry Dex, but I’ve got a couple of small nits to pick here.

**

Actually, with regard to wine, the reason for the prohibition is becasue we’re afraid the non-Jew may have consecrated it as a libation to his idol. Since, in Talmudic times, only non-cooked wine was commonly used for idolatrous libations, only non-cooked wine was included in the prohibition. If the prohibiton was because of the fear of non-kosher foods being mixed in, then it would make no difference whether the wine was cooked or not.

**

Actually, there is no debate on this matter. Chickens were not included in the milk/meat mixture commandment.

The reason we don’t eat fowl with milk today is because of a Rabbinic decree. Because fowl meat is similar to red meat, they were afraid that if one were allowed to have fowl with milk products, then one might also come to allow meat with milk (which is prohibited).

Fish, OTOH, were considered dissimilar enough from meat to not be included.

One more minor point. Under “Birds” you said (WRT Judaism):

**

In truth, it’s not very complicated at all. The Torah lists prohibited species (not permitted ones) with the implication that all other species are permitted. However, since (as is the case with locusts) the exact translations of some of the terms are lost to us, we today only eat species for which we have a long-standing tradition that they are kosher.

Otherwise, this was an excellent column and I am appreciative of the chance to learn more about the dietary restrictions in Islam and about the commanalities in our religions.

Zev Steinhardt

Not really. I computed what Yom Kippur would be in a city at the lattitute of Stockholm (59 degrees north) if it fell on Oct 1. The result was odd (in that the sun doesnt’ set until 1:35AM (so that’s when YK would start), but it would end the following day at 2:47, still about 25 hours. So, while the start/end hours may get skewed, the total number of hours will still remain about the same.

Source: Myzmanim.com

Zev Steinhardt

Zev Steinhardt

Most conservative authorities consider the “handled by non-Jews” to be outdated, from a fear that non-Jews would do something like drop bacon grease into the wine.” ~C K Dexter Haven

I think part of the reason was also fear that too much social interaction with non-Jews might lead to intermarriage.

In any case, as far as the Orthodox are concerned the reasons for a prohibition are usually irrelevant. We have a concept called lo p’lug, which literally means “do not seperate.” The idea is that we don’t say that because of the original intent of a decree it is applicable in only certain cases but not in others; once the Rabbis make a decree it is eternally applicable regardless of changes in circumstance. (Then again, many Jews today accept that in Western nations the ancient prohibition against drinking milk whose production was not supervised by Jews is inapplicable, because strict laws and random inspections by non-Jewish authorities deter milk farmers from selling anything but pure milk. In any case, it’s uneconomical to add anything but water to your milk [since water is the only thing that is sufficiently cheaper than milk to make it worthwhile], and certainly any non-kosher ingredients added would constitute less than one-sixtieth of the final mixture and therefore be batul b’rov, considered insignificant compared to the vast majority of kosher liquid. Anyway, if I were a milk farmer I’d be a lot more scared of fines in the range of millions of dollars for selling impure milk than a breach-of-contract lawsuit. But anyway.)

My question is this: If it is permitted in both religions to violate these laws to save one’s life, what about the consumption of human flesh in the same circumstances?” ~goddessodd

I’ve actually considered this before. In Judaism (and I think in Islam as well), one is not permitted to endanger himself except in very specific circumstances. That means that a Jew is required to go to any lengths necessary to survive (with a few exceptions, as noted below). Ergo, I should think that a Jew would be required to consume human flesh if his life were threatened.

There are four exceptions to the rule requiring that one not endanger himself, AFAIK. A Jew must give up his life rather than commit murder, idolatry, or any one of the most severe sexual sins (although I’m not sure which ones those are, exactly; I’m pretty sure adultery is included, but there are definitely others). There is a fourth circumstance under which a Jew must give up his life, involving religious persecution, but I’m not sure exactly what is included in this exception. (Incidentally, I think I once heard that a Jew who committed one of the first three sins under threat of death isn’t liable to the death penalty that those sins normally entail. I have a hard time imagining someone getting away with murder under those circumstances, though.)

That’s if you’re lucky and live (relatively) near the equator - say in Israel. I should think that the length of the Sabbath/holiday would increase exponentially as one goes north in the summer - taken to the logical extreme of “Midnight Sun” starting sometime, somewhere on a Saturday morning - Sabbath may last several days/weeks. Wonder what kind of time an observant Polar explorer would have trying to keep Sabbath?” ~Dan Abarbanel

Yes, there are some issues to which there is no real answer other than “don’t get into the situation.” Halakha doesn’t cover concepts completely unknown to the Israelites at the time of the giving of the Torah, and that includes a round Earth. I also once came across a discussion of the halakhic international dateline.

But what about “Merely” 30-hour Sabbaths (as may possibly be experienced, say, in Sweden, Scotland, Canada), caused by sunset being followed VERY BELATEDLY by full darkness?” ~Dan Abarbanel

I’m pretty sure there’s not really such a thing as a 30-hour Sabbath (unless you’re feeling really devout and decide to start it at p’lag haminkha and end on Tuesday, but we aren’t talking about that). The difference between sunset and nightfall never dramatically exceeds an hour or so. There isn’t even really such a huge problem when you have an extremely short day, say an hour long, and an extremely long night, say 23 hours long (although you’d better have a pretty darn fast chazzan to get through shakharis, musaf, and minkha before sunset), or vice versa (but luckily maariv is shorter). The day/night cycle will still take about 24 hours. AFAIK, nowhere on Earth do you ever have a 30-hour day/night cycle. The cycle as a whole increases in increments of about 24 hours, as multiple cycles meld together.

Zev - Are you sure about your sources? On Oct. 1, even allowing for DST, dusk (sundown) should be sometime around 19:00 or earlier (perhaps already quite a bit earlier in Stockholm) - We’re beyond the Equinox already!

Aryeh - Sure, dusk to dusk is 24 hours. Nightfall (i.e., three stars) to nightfall - also 24 hours. But what about Dusk (on, say, Erev Yom Kippur) to Nightfall (on Motsa’ei YK)? The time FROM DUSK TO NIGHTFALL, which IS somewhere under 60 minutes here in Israel, can be SUBSTANTIALLY longer at higher latitudes!

You both may be right and I wrong, but it goes against my intuition and what (I think…) I know about the mechanics of sunsets around the world.

Dan Abarbanel

I may very well have not adjusted for time zone differences. But in any event, even if the start/end hours are a bit skewed, it should still be only about 25 hours.

Zev Steinhardt

I admit I hadn’t thought it out - of course Yom Kippur falls on or about the equinox, so days are about 12 hours long, and even twilight is relatively uniform worldwide.
But if we take today as an example - for Tromso, Norway (nearly 70N, and probably a perfectly good place to live), it’s already curtains as far as any meaningful calculation is considered - it has midnight, noon, etc. all at 0:00 - I think their next sunset is probably due sometime in July…
In Stockholm, you really get to be in deep trouble come Shabbat - although they aren’t far enough north to avoid sunset, no meaningful time for 3 stars (nightfall) is given on Saturday, June 21. It just isn’t going to get dark enough to end the Shabbat this week, although the sun DOES set on Friday - so you CAN start it.
So, on Friday evening sunset occurs. One waits paitently for the next nightfall, to turn OFF the hotplate under the Cholnt (not to mention driving in to work on Monday). Now what ?

Dan Abarbanel

IIRC (and I’d have to do research to confirm this) tzais ha-kochavim (nightfall) is defined as a set number of minutes (the exact number a matter of dispute) after sunset, regardless of whether or not it actually gets dark.

In any event, the discussion that we are having only applies in areas that have a sunrise/sunset within a 24 hour period. If we’re dealing with an area above the Arctic Circle (or below the Antarctic Circle) where there are periods where there is no sunrise/sunset in a 24 hour period, then different rules apply. Exactly what those rules are is a matter of dispute.

I have at home a tape of a shiur (lecture) given by Rabbi Yissachar Frand about this very topic. In it, he describes some of the opinions that I mentioned above.

BTW, are you any relation to the famous Don Yitzchak Abarbanel?

Zev Steinhardt

I’m trying to be understanding, but this just gets me.

C K Dexter Haven said:

and from the column:

and zev_steinhardt said:

Also, I remember from a movie showing Hassidim that they had separate refrigerators for milk and meat products. The Herculean leaps of logic required here seem absolutely ridiculous. There’s no kind way to say how stupid this sounds. I guess I’ll just take comfort in the fact that I don’t have to worry about it.

One does not need separate refrigerators for meat and milk. One does, however, need separate plates, pots and pans for milk and meat, however.

I’m sorry if we sound so “absolutely ridiculous” to you. :rolleyes:

Zev Steinhradt

Hello Irishman,

In any religion, some are more observant (“orthodox”) than others. Jews, too, run the whole gamut: from Ultra-Orthodox Jews (to which these Hassidim belong), who sometimes do go as far as owning separate refrigerators (and let’s not get started on Passover vs. the rest of the year…) , through various levels of observance, and all the way down (or up, or sideways - whatever) to Jews like myself who just don’t bother with the dietary laws.

In other religions, other aspects of life may seem equally stretched - like the concepts behind what’s right and wrong for a catholic to do, and can (s)he gain absolution after the fact for some “sin” or not by taking confession and saying a few “Hail Maries” … Some catholics pay a lot of attention to these kinds of things, some are (some more, some less) decent human beings without looking at the ground rules all the time.

I’m sure other religions may be “Funny” in other ways to outsiders as well. It’s a question of belief, different people believe in different ways of life, and in each case, some alter their behavior more according to these principles, and some - while possibly nominally belonging to a religious denomination - may alter their behavior far less or not at all.

It takes all kinds- including an Atheist Jew like myself - and This is not a contradiction in terms!

Dan Abarbanel

First, I thank Dex for a very well-researched column, both on kashrut and on halal.

Now some follow-ups.

The Hassids are a very Orthodox sect (possibly several sects), and like any extremely right-wing religious group, their practices should be taken with a grain of kosher salt.

Both Dex and Aryeh Gregor refer to the complexity of Jewish law and the length of the collected discussions of law known as the Talmud. There’s an old saying in Jewish schools, which I’m sure Zev has heard before: “We have been fashioned with two hands: One to read the Talmud, the other to follow the commentary of Rashi.”

The Talmud is long and complex, and (IIRC) was finalized by the mid 5th century CE (I think the Mishna, the older work, was from the Babylonian period, 5th century BCE). Rashi, some centuries later, made a major effort to update and elaborate the Talmud’s text and rules. And as if that wasn’t enough, there’s the later commentary on Rashi’s commentary. Zev, how close am I?

Finally, Dex’s closing point in his comment on 6/14 is worth noting – a great deal of the Jewish - Islamic tensions and hatreds arise from political disputes. If the two sides would calm down enough (which IMGD would require the arrival of the Messiah, the Redeemer), we could have a very good dinner together.

Also, I remember from a movie showing Hassidim that they had separate refrigerators for milk and meat products.” ~Irishman

I am an entirely religious Orthodox Jew, and I would like to state that I am quite certain that this practice (which I’ve never heard of before, incidentally) is absolutely ridiculous and has no basis in Jewish law or anything else. Following such a “stringency” is no more admirable than following a “stringency” of, say, turning around three times before you eat anything. It is meaningless and moronic, and they should be putting more effort into actually following real laws (such as saying the morning amida prayer before a third of daylight hours have passed, say) rather than inventing idiocies. It should be noted that I am no great scholar, but I would bet that there’s no basis for this whatsoever (if I ever bet and betting were permitted, that is).

It should also perhaps be noted that I am a misnaged (literally “one who opposes”), an opponent of khasidus (the state of being a hasid; literally “devotion,” which just shows you how arrogant they are). However, I would denounce things like this no matter who practices them. I am always opposed to stupidity, regardless of its practitioner.

The Herculean leaps of logic required here seem absolutely ridiculous. There’s no kind way to say how stupid this sounds. I guess I’ll just take comfort in the fact that I don’t have to worry about it.” ~Irishman

I understand that this may seem ridiculous. Let me explain the basis for these things, so that even if you don’t believe in the premises the logic of these things is understandable given those premises.

The written Torah (a.k.a. the Pentateuch; the first five books of the Bible, from Genesis through Deuteronomy) is not exactly the basis for Jewish law. Instead, an oral tradition, known as the oral Torah, has been passed down from generation to generation. According to tradition it originated at Mount Sinai, when God gave it to Moses, but you can draw your own conclusions. At any rate, it resembles what the written Torah says but is much more complex and detailed, and sometimes directly contradicts what the written Torah says. For instance, the written Torah merely states “bind [these words] as a sign on your hands, and they should be totafos [no known translation] between your eyes.” The oral Torah explains that a few excerpts from the written Torah must be written on scrolls and placed in two special leather boxes in a very specific manner, and that these boxes must be bound with special leather straps in a certain manner onto you, one on the upper arm and one on the forehead above the hairline, and that this must be done daily, and that the commandment only applies to men, and so forth.

In any case, for the purposes of Jewish law (halakha) we do not follow the written Torah. We follow the oral Torah. Now, this oral Torah has certainly been distorted between Sinai and the time of the Talmud, when it was written down (a difference of maybe a thousand years or so). This doesn’t matter, either. As I explained, the oral Torah that we currently have is the law, regardless of what it used to be.

So it has been established that we follow the oral Torah as written down in the Talmud. The commandments in this oral Torah, with all their details, are known as Biblical commandments.

There are also some commandments derived from the Prophets (although not many). Prophetic commandments, as far as I know, are followed more or less literally. These are also binding upon all Jews. Again, what is actually written in the Prophets is pretty much irrelevant; we follow the Talmud alone.

The Rabbis then issued decrees for various reasons, imposing additional stringencies (or occasionally quasi-leniencies) on us. Again, the original decree is irrelevant; the way these Rabbinical commandments are explained in the Talmud is what is binding.

Finally, tradition is added in. Over the years various communities have developed different traditions, and those are more or less binding upon those whose families originally came from those communities. Which set of traditions one follows isn’t entirely set in stone; one who moves to a new community might follow some or all of the traditions of that community, a convert or one who doesn’t know what his family traditions are can pick any set of traditions he wants, and so forth. Some of these traditions might be stringencies, and some might be variations in such things as Rabbinically mandated prayers that have crept in over the years. These traditions aren’t explained in the Talmud and aren’t considered binding upon all Jews, although religious Jews have to follow some sort of tradition in most subjects. (For instance, there are a number of variations in the amida prayer, depending on the community. All religious Jews have to pick one of these variations. You generally aren’t allowed to make up your own.)

It should also be noted that I have listed these varieties of commandments in descending order of importance and they are followed in that order. Biblical commandments supercede Prophetic commandments (although they don’t generally come into conflict with each other), both usually supercede Rabbinical commandments (although the Rabbis had the power to decree that in certain circumstances one is not permitted to follow a Biblical or Prophetic commandment), and all of them supercede tradition. This last point is often ignored by Jews trying to cling to their traditions at the expense of actual Jewish law, but some traditions are simply wrong.

So, let us look at the prohibition against milk and meat:

  1. The written Torah just states, “Do not cook a kid in its mother’s milk.” This is irrelevant. We do not follow the written Torah.

  2. The Talmud states that there is a Biblical prohibition against eating any dairy product together with any meat (although poultry and fish are okay). Although this is not stated in the written Torah at all, it is the oral law and is considered a Biblical commandment anyway. “Biblical commandment” is something of a misnomer in this case, because the commandment isn’t written in the Bible itself, but that’s what it’s called.

  3. The Talmud further explains that the Rabbis were worried that people might confuse poultry with meat, so they prohibited the combination of poultry and dairy products as well. This is a Rabbinical commandment and has nothing to do with the Bible.

  4. Traditions later developed, and stringencies were applied. For example, most Orthodox Jews are probably more careful than is strictly necessary about seperating utensils used for meat and dairy products. Although there is a prohibition against using the same utensils for both (I’m not sure if it’s Biblical or Rabbinical), it only applies in certain cases. Religious Jews usually don’t use the same utensils for meat products and milk products at all, even when it would technically be permissible, and in my experience generally use seperate tablecloths for milk and meat products, and so forth. None of this is technically required. Some of it is useful, however; the laws about when one may or may not use a utensil for both meat and dairy products are fairly complex, and it’s useful to not have to worry about it. Putting milk and meat in seperate refrigerators is exceptionally extreme, but it falls under this too. Again, none of this is actually binding.

Now I will summarize the principles involved in Jewish law:

  1. What the written Torah says is irrelevant to Jewish law.
  2. What the oral Torah says, as explained in the Talmud, is considered Biblical law and is binding.
  3. What the written Prophets say is irrelevant to Jewish law.
  4. What the oral tradition says the Prophets commanded, as explained in the Talmud, is considered Prophetic law and is binding.
  5. What the Rabbis may or may not have actually decreed in the past is irrelevant to Jewish law.
  6. What the oral tradition says the Rabbis decreed, as explained in the Talmud, is considered Rabbinical law and is binding.
  7. Traditions that later developed are more or less binding, but are very flexible compared to actual commandments and are always subordinate to them.

Even if you think these premises a bit odd, I hope I have made the logic behind all this clear once you understand them.

A Doper from Way The Heck Up North checking in:

The most northerly Jewish community I’m aware of is in Trondheim, Norway. Trondheim is south of the Arctic Circle and there is a point one could technically call sunset all year round, although I’m sure there are some interesting challenges with Sabbath starting so late in the summer and so early in the winter. (Imagine trying to explain to your co-workers that you need to leave work on Friday early enough to get home before 3:30, when the rest of the city is in the middle of the Christmas rush…)

Muslims in Scandinavia have a different problem. The Jewish calendar, though lunar, contains adjustments that keep it in line with the solar calendar, so Yom Kippur falls at a predictable time of the year. The Islamic calendar is completely lunar and does not adjust to the solar calendar, so Ramadan can occur in any season. As far as I’m aware, Muslims in the greater Oslo area generally follow the fasting times recommended by their mosque’s imam rather than the solar times if the fast period would otherwise be so long it was potentially a health hazard, or so short there would be little sacrifice. The imams, in turn, use the fasting times in Mecca or in their home countries as a guide.

I looked up a bunch of calendar info some time ago. The technical term for the Hebrew calendar is lunisolar, which means exactly what flodnak describes: Lunar months, with adjustments to keep the months (and holidays) aligned with the solar year.

Dex, great fifty-two hundred something[sup]th[/sup] post, keep it up!! :slight_smile:

In all seriousness, we’re not supposed to gush in these forums but what the heck. I think the column was very very interesting, and your post (as well as the posts of many others here) equally so. Your post gave me a warm tingly feeling, and I do hope many read this stuff and begin to tear down these stupidly ridiculous tensions between the two religions.

I have a question that kind of relates to the post at the beginning of the thread about dust mites. I thought of it right away while reading the column, and I thought I’d post it here instead of starting a new thread.

From the column:

Does this prohibition on insect parts only apply to “large chunks”, I guess you would call it? (ie. fly crawls into broccoli and gets squished)

While reading the column this part immediately reminded me how many food regulatory agencies set out maximum allowable limits on the amount of bug/insect parts allowed in processed foods - I specifically remember this for wheat flour.

How would this affect ultra-orthodox Jews? Would it affect them at all? Or would it fall under the “microscopic too small to bother” explanation for why they aren’t bothered by dust mites?

Sorry if this is a stupid question.

Thanks.

I thought the whole point of these ancient dietary laws was to hold down the incidence of food poisoning. In the days before knowledge of microbes and modern hygene, what better way to avoid getting sick than to not eat food that was likely to make you sick? And how to get people to remember what was good and what was not? Societies of the time were largely run by the priests so their warnings and reminders were assigned religeous significance by default.

I’m sorry this is not entirely on-topic, but in the article it was written:

Christianity also views blood as symbolizing life, but takes a different route–the symbolic drinking of blood is a Christian remembrance of Christ’s sacrifice in order to win eternal life for his people.

:smack: This is not entirely true. While Jesus did say something to the effect of “This is my blood, drink this in remembrance of me,” he was not actually talking about blood. What he was talking about was really wine, or grape juice. My point being, Christians do not drink blood.

Waenara, these laws do apply equally well to smaller pieces of insects (such as a leg) as to “large chunks.” The operating criterion is always whether the offending matter is visible to the naked eye, even though it may look like just a dot (and it would take a magnifying glass to resolve it as a bug).

The problem with broccoli and other such vegetables, then, is that there may be bugs (or pieces of them) in the crevices that are too small to notice in situ (especially if they’re the same color as the vegetable itself, as is true of various kinds of thrips, for example), but would be perfectly well visible if they were placed, say, on a sheet of paper.

Mehalan, there is the doctrine of transubstantiation. Which would mean that some Christians do drink blood. Or believe that they do, at least.