# do jews go to heaven? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [November 2, 2000, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-jews-go-to-heaven/39445 "2000-11-02T20:38:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Arjuna34](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb8c5e/32.png) [@Arjuna34](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arjuna34)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2000, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-jews-go-to-heaven/39445/21 "2000-11-02T23:37:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Johnny L.A. \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > There is a thread of Jewish thought that the concepts of Heaven and Hell were originally Greek, and only appeared in Judaism rather late in the OT period. I know several devout Jews (conservative and orthodox, mostly) who deny the existence of Heaven and Hell. However, the recognize themselves as being a distinct minority. > > I’ve heard that, too. > > So if there is no Heaven or Hell (i.e., when you’re dead, you’re dead) what’s the point of having a religion? > \*\* Here’s Cecil’s take on the OP as well as this specific question about what’s the point of a religion with no afterlife. [http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a4\_143.html](http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a4_143.html) Arjuna34 ---
**Author:** ![Arjuna34](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb8c5e/32.png) [@Arjuna34](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arjuna34)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2000, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-jews-go-to-heaven/39445/22 "2000-11-02T23:39:02Z")
Oops, the Cecil column I refered to doesn’t really address the OP, it just answers Jonny L.A.'s question. Arjuna34 ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2000, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-jews-go-to-heaven/39445/23 "2000-11-03T00:17:30Z")
From the English edition of the Catechism of the Catholic Church: [quote] **The Church and non-Christians** 839 “Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways.”[325] The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People,[326] “the first to hear the Word of God.”[327] The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God’s revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews “belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ”,[328] “for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable.”[329] 840 And when one considers the future, God’s People of the Old Covenant and the new People of God tend towards similar goals: expectation of the coming (or the return) of the Messiah. But one awaits the return of the Messiah who died and rose from the dead and is recognized as Lord and Son of God; the other awaits the coming of a Messiah, whose features remain hidden till the end of time; and the latter waiting is accompanied by the drama of not knowing or of misunderstanding Christ Jesus. [quote] > [@](#): > > **"Outside the Church there is no salvation"** > > 846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?[335] Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body: > Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.[336] > > 847 _This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church: > Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.[337]_ (italics mine) The “through no fault of their own” (while it certainly appears condescending from an outside perspective) does not indicate people in the Amazon jungle who have never heard the Gospel preached, but people who, by culture, education, or prior belief do not “recognize” the truth presented by the Gospels (as moderated by the RCC, of course \< eg \> ). As to Scriptural references: in Paul’s great essay on faith, _Romans_, the first two chapters are devoted to the required response to God by those who are believers and those who are not. The RCC differs from various Fundamentalist groups in interpreting those passages in the manner of section 847, above, rather than in the manner of those Fundamentalists who say “that’s all very well, but if you don’t say ‘I believe’ you are damned.” Obviously those are different views of Scripture, but people who follow the RCC interpretation (which includes most Anglican-based groups and several groups in the tradition of Luther) do not hold that only people who say “I believe in Jesus” are saved–and that certainly includes Jewish people. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2000, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-jews-go-to-heaven/39445/24 "2000-11-03T00:43:57Z")
I’m going to need the help of people who know more commentary than I do, but I seem to recall somewhere reading that the reason the Torah doesn’t talk more about the afterlife (What’s the reward for doing mitzvot? "That you may live long in the land that G-d has given you) is because the Egyptians talked about it constantly. They were a culture obsessed with death and the afterlife, and their religion revolved around life after death, and this led to them doing all sorts of terrible things. So, G-d decided not to tell the people (who were already grumbling that they had left Egypt) about the afterlife, because He knew that people would just do right for the reward, and they’d become like Egyptians. On the entire other side of the coin, you’ve got the Karaites, who don’t think there’s a life after death (among other things). Not that I agree with them, but one of them said something about the afterlife that does make sense…“Don’t be like servants serving a master for a reward…be like servants serving a master without hope of reward.”…we do what’s right because it’s right. ---
**Author:** ![jmullaney](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/85e7bf/32.png) [@jmullaney](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jmullaney)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2000, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-jews-go-to-heaven/39445/25 "2000-11-03T00:55:05Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by tomndebb \* > The “through no fault of their own” (while it certainly appears condescending from an outside perspective) does not indicate people in the Amazon jungle who have never heard the Gospel preached, but people who, by culture, education, or prior belief do not “recognize” the truth presented by the Gospels (as moderated by the RCC, of course \< eg \> )._\* I honestly disagree with tomndebb’s interpretation of this statement. If, the blind follow the blind, they both fall into the pit. At what point does not knowing the truth presented in the gospels become a person’s fault? By your understanding it is never their fault. But I’ll start a thread in GD. ---
**Author:** ![Arken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dfb087/32.png) [@Arken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arken)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2000, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-jews-go-to-heaven/39445/26 "2000-11-03T14:21:33Z")
Johnny L.A. said: > [@](#): > > I’ve heard that, too. > > So if there is no Heaven or Hell (i.e., when you’re dead, you’re dead) what’s the point of having a religion? The point of having a religion is to explain the unknown and have a system of morals. There are other religions without an afterlife, you know. ---
**Author:** ![Fiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e274bd/32.png) [@Fiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiver)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2000, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-jews-go-to-heaven/39445/27 "2000-11-03T14:40:46Z")
Wow, this thread’s almost 24 hours old, and still no sign of Chaim Keller. That must be some sort of record for a thread with “Jews” in the title. ---
**Author:** ![SuaSponte](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/67e7ee/32.png) [@SuaSponte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SuaSponte)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2000, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-jews-go-to-heaven/39445/28 "2000-11-03T15:27:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Jodi \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > You think Jesus came to bring peace? > > Did I say this? Did I say anything like this? Please read my post again. And please post your not-so-veiled-attacks on Christianity in the appropriate forum, and I’ll ignore them there. **Jodi** , I think you are off-base here. Unless my memories of the New Testament are hopelessly corrupted, I believe that J.C. says, “I come not to bring peace, but the sword.” Assuming this is what **jmullaney** was referring to, I can’t see how referencing a quote from J.C. qualifies as a “not-so-veiled-attack” on Christianity. Sua ---
**Author:** ![Kyberneticist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dc4da7/32.png) [@Kyberneticist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyberneticist)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2000, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-jews-go-to-heaven/39445/29 "2000-11-03T15:31:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jmullaney \* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by tomndebb \* > > The Catechism of the Catholic Church specifically addresses the issue of non-Catholic and non-Christian people attaining heaven and comes down with a qualified yes leaning very heavily on the “yes” and away from the “qualified.” > > That is not entirely correct. Anyone can be saved if they attempt to know and do God’s will. That doesn’t mean the RCC teaches people who willfully ignore Christ’s teachings can be saved. Agreed, and this is not restricted to the RCC. In Ancient Jewish Apocalyptic writings we moved off on a tangent from discussion of Daniel 7 to Church doctrine. My Professor, a most liberal Christian, was finally pinned down into admitting that he believed, and based upon NT statements, that those while those ignorant of “the Truth” (i.e. church doctrine) could still be saved, those deliberately rejecting same after having been made aware of it were not only damned, but qualified as having accepted the Mark of the Beast (making us members of the army of the damned which will harass the saints in the last days). ---
**Author:** ![zen101](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c68b51/32.png) [@zen101](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zen101)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2000, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-jews-go-to-heaven/39445/30 "2000-11-03T15:45:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Satan \* > \*\*Not according to most Christians… > > * * * > > Yer pal, > [Satan](http://www.members.tripod.com/jmspoofe/sdmb/satan.jpg) > > \*I HAVE BEEN SMOKE-FREE FOR: > Six months, three weeks, three days, 19 hours, 10 minutes and 35 seconds. > 8311 cigarettes not smoked, saving $1,038.99. > Extra life with Drain Bead: 4 weeks, 20 hours, 35 minutes. > > **David B used me as a cite!** \* \*\* Yeah but most Christians think Jesus was a cracker too so you have to wary of the source. 😉 Hey, and if thats you that keeps trying that in the back of my car, cut it out! ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2000, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-jews-go-to-heaven/39445/31 "2000-11-03T15:53:17Z")
Pushing back to the OP on Jewish beliefs on the question of afterlife, there is no one particular “standard.” The Torah itself does not mention an afterlife, nor a Messianic Era. Later books suggest or hint at such (King Saul raises up the ghost of Samuel, and the prophets certainly predict a Messianic Era.) The Biblical view of life is fairly simplistic: God is just, so good is rewarded, evil is punished, here and now, in this world. As the centuries passed and people noticed that the world doesn’t work that way, the question arose of how a Just God could tolerate injustice; and the answer tended towards, well, it seems like injustice here on earth, but in an afterlife, this will all be resolved and justice (and mercy) will prevail. Hence, in the hundred years or so before Jesus, there were a number of sects of Judaism heavily preaching an afterlife. Jesus, of course, and his followers made this the main premise of their new religion. There was certainly an attraction in the notion that there is an afterlife of reward for the good (you) and punishment for the evil (your enemies), which was one of the reasons that Christianity spread so rapidly among pagans. Over the Centuries, Judaism and Christianity borrowed from each other – OK, technically, I should say, both contributed to and took from the common sociological culture. So, Jews and Christians living together in Europe came to share a few thoughts. Thus, Judaism took on a more Christian notion of heaven, while Christianity took on a more Jewish notion of Messianic Era (when Jesus comes again.) So, where are we today? Wide range of beliefs within Judaism. At the one extreme, a heaven after death, where the righteous study together at the foot of the heavenly throne. Hell, as a place of atonement for sins, lasting from 11 to 12 months. And oblivion for those who are just TOO dreadful: not a hell of eternal torment, but simply oblivion (the soul being “cut off”). At the other extreme, death is viewed as a time of sleep/oblivion until re-awakening when the Messiah comes. Heaven will be on earth, on a completed and perfected earth, when the lion lies down with the lamb and so forth. And then there are plenty of Jews who reject it all, and say that this world is what there is, and death is the end of life. In any case, all Jews (OK, almost all, my cousin Fred disagrees, but he’s a nut case) agree that the focus of life should be here on earth. The goal is to do mitzvot (commandments) and tzadakah (good deeds) here and now, to be a partner with God in helping to clean/perfect/fix THIS world… and to leave any afterworld in God’s hands. That is, the purpose of doing good deeds is NOT to get into heaven… but for doing the good deeds themselves. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2000, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-jews-go-to-heaven/39445/32 "2000-11-03T16:02:05Z")
Five: I usually don’t contribute when I have nothing to say but “Zev ( **zev\_steinhardt** , that is), I agree with you.” As you can see now, though, I have been keeping my eyes on it. I do have something to add now, though, and that is a bit of disagreement to **CKDextHavn** ’s statement: > [@](#): > > Over the Centuries, Judaism and Christianity borrowed from each other – OK, technically, I should say, both contributed to and took from the common sociological culture. So, Jews and Christians living together in Europe came to share a few thoughts. Thus, Judaism took on a more Christian notion of heaven, while Christianity took on a more Jewish notion of Messianic Era (when Jesus comes again.) I find this notion hard to accept, simply because any Jewish writings you’ll find on the subject are clearly rooted in the Midrash and Talmud, which were written either before Christianity became popular in the Roman empire, or in Babylon, which was beyond Christianity’s reach…and all of it was certainly prior to the massive Jewish emigration to Europe in the later half of the first millennium. Perhaps it’s fair to say that some of the ideas that became incorporated into the Midrash and Talmud were influenced by the same sources that influenced the earliest, Jewish Christians, but by the time Christianity became the world-spanning religion we know today, the Jewish sources on which all later writings are based were already in their final forms. ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2000, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-jews-go-to-heaven/39445/33 "2000-11-03T16:54:50Z")
I think we’ll agree to disagree on that, Chaim. I guess the question is to what extent things spring from their sources (Talmudic and Midrashic) and to what extent things develop and evolve. I suspect that if you ask most American Jews to describe an angel, however, you will get the Christian version (blond hair, halo, harp, big fluffy white wings). If you ask American Jews to describe heaven, or the role that angels play, you’ll get the fluffy cloud Christian version. I think that rabbis would prefer this were not so, but the Christian perspective so permeated the culture in which Jews live, that it’s difficult not to have some osmotic effect. ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2000, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-jews-go-to-heaven/39445/34 "2000-11-03T17:19:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by CKDextHavn \* > \*\* > I suspect that if you ask most American Jews to describe an angel, however, you will get the Christian version (blond hair, halo, harp, big fluffy white wings). If you ask American Jews to describe heaven, or the role that angels play, you’ll get the fluffy cloud Christian version. > > I think that rabbis would prefer this were not so, but the Christian perspective so permeated the culture in which Jews live, that it’s difficult not to have some osmotic effect. \*\* I think you need to qualify this, **CKDextHavn**. The reason that many American Jews would describe an angel in Christian terms is because, unfortunately, most American Jews are woefully uneducated about their own religion and culture. I’m willing to bet if you ask most American Jews who have more than a fleeting knowledge of their religion and traditions to describe an angel, you wouldn’t necessarily get the Christian version of angels. It’s not because Judaism adopted the Christian version of an angel, but because Jews are unaware of their own traditions regarding angels. Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2000, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-jews-go-to-heaven/39445/35 "2000-11-03T19:37:05Z")
Fair enough, Zev, and that raises the question of whether, when we talk about “Jewish beliefs” we mean the beliefs held by many/most Jews, or the beliefs held by Judaism. And I guess I don’t wanna go there without a few beers. Shabbat shalom. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-jews-go-to-heaven/39445.md?page=1)