# Do Jews hold grudge against Germans? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [July 18, 2012, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-jews-hold-grudge-against-germans/628668 "2012-07-18T22:43:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-jews-hold-grudge-against-germans/628668/41 "2012-07-20T01:12:26Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > West Germany (and I think Germany since reunification) gave Israel some monetary and military aid, for what it’s worth. So, I can make soap out of your Mother and if I give you a Volkswagen, it will be okay? What I came to post: There was a German guy at work, very nice, but I felt very awkward around him. His first memory was his parents “cooking in a hole in the ground”. I wonder if they were in the bombed ruins of a German city, but I never asked him. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-jews-hold-grudge-against-germans/628668/42 "2012-07-20T03:24:00Z")
> [@Jaledin](#): > > I don’t know what you’re on about, Farmer Janet, but the people I’m talking about identify as Jews – I know they’re probably white or whatever, but that’s their family and their culture. What’s the problem? Me, I’m not culturally Jewish but I still have the idea. What are you on about, man? I think she’s referring to people who for example said one person was half-German and half-Jewish without identifying the latter’s nationality. Incidentally the idea of Jews as separate from other people of the country was the idea the Nazis used. _Stops Godwinizing_ ---
**Author:** ![KarlGauss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/karlgauss/32/3713_2.png) [@KarlGauss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGauss)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2012, 9:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-jews-hold-grudge-against-germans/628668/43 "2012-07-22T09:59:30Z")
As someone whose extended family included lots of Holocaust survivors and many more who didn’t, I have always been struck by the grudge so many of the former hold against _Poles_. I grew up hearing lots of stories along the lines of how, “my sister was betrayed by a Pole for a bag of salt; may he burn in hell”. Only in the last 20 years or so, have the many examples of Poles who risked everything to save their Jewish friend or neighbour, etc, gotten a lot of air time. Likewise, it’s now more widely appreciated what a _huge_ risk they were taking in doing so. I believe that had these things been as widely publicized and appreciated in, say, 1950 or 1960, my relatives may have changed. But they never seemed to. Back to the OP, at least in the case of my family, there really was never very much anti-German sentiment (and not nearly so much as there was “anti-anti-semite”). Whatever dislike there was of the ‘_Deutschen_’ diminished with time - ‘you can’t punish a kid because his father was a murderer’ type of thing. ---
**Author:** ![incidental](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/22d042/32.png) [@incidental](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/incidental)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2012, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-jews-hold-grudge-against-germans/628668/44 "2012-07-22T13:13:42Z")
Well, on one hand my Dad married a woman of german descent. On the other, he will never go to visit Germany, and was definitely disdainful of the idea of me learning German in high school. Of course, he also doesn’t have a large travel budget and was a French teacher. So…take it as you will. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2012, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-jews-hold-grudge-against-germans/628668/45 "2012-07-22T20:39:46Z")
IME whenever I meet Germans, they feel the need to apologize to me for the Holocaust. I explain two things- #1 ‘I was not born at the time’ is generally a great excuse for not having to apologize for something. The oldest German I’ve had apologize would have been maybe 10 during the Holocaust. IMO, this pretty much absolves him of any responsibility. #2 I’m German/Austrian on my father’s side. My last name is VERY German. German heritage is great music, great sausage, and the world’s best beer. Dad was a big fan of German folk music and German opera. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2012, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-jews-hold-grudge-against-germans/628668/46 "2012-07-22T20:42:56Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > German opera. Wagner! ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2012, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-jews-hold-grudge-against-germans/628668/47 "2012-07-22T20:46:58Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Wagner! I don’t recall if I asked Dad about Wagner’s feelings on racial purity or Hitler’s love of Wagner. I do recall that Dad could not get enough of The Ring. ---
**Author:** ![Simple\_Linctus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Simple\_Linctus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simple_Linctus)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2012, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-jews-hold-grudge-against-germans/628668/48 "2012-07-22T21:22:28Z")
> [@Jaledin](#): > > So, yeah. No shit a lot of Jews don’t like those crypto-Nazi motherfuckers. I consider that hate speech (albeit fairly mild) so have asked for a mod ruling on whether it is or not. My view is very much forgive and forget. ---
**Author:** ![KarlGauss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/karlgauss/32/3713_2.png) [@KarlGauss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGauss)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2012, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-jews-hold-grudge-against-germans/628668/49 "2012-07-22T21:53:20Z")
> [@Confused dart cum](#): > > I consider that hate speech (albeit fairly mild) so have asked for a mod ruling on whether it is or not. > > My view is very much forgive and forget. > [@](#): > > . . .original post sounded like I was asking for mod sanctions which I wasn’t So you reported it? And, if it is considered “hate speech”, do you suppose there’s a chance that sanctions might be forthcoming? You’ve been here for what, not even two months? There are LOTS of threads about what _is_ considered ‘hate speech’ around here. ETA: “Forget”? Seriously? The Holocaust? ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2012, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-jews-hold-grudge-against-germans/628668/50 "2012-07-22T22:01:59Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > I don’t recall if I asked Dad about Wagner’s feelings on racial purity or Hitler’s love of Wagner. I do recall that Dad could not get enough of The Ring. The Encyclopedia of Nazism describes Wagner as the first Nazi. He was involved in the revolution of 1948. One of his favorite conductors at Beyreuth was Jewish. Whatever. _Der Ring Das Niebelungen_ is outstanding. ---
**Author:** ![Simple\_Linctus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Simple\_Linctus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simple_Linctus)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2012, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-jews-hold-grudge-against-germans/628668/51 "2012-07-22T22:07:11Z")
> [@KarlGauss](#): > > So you reported it? And, if it is considered “hate speech”, do you suppose there’s a chance that sanctions might be forthcoming? You’ve been here for what, not even two months? There are LOTS of threads about what _is_ considered ‘hate speech’ around here. > > ETA: “Forget”? Seriously? The Holocaust? I have no view on whether there should be mod sanctions or not. Obviously I do not think the holocaust should be forgotten. But neither do I think present day germans should be punished for it either. And they’re certainly not “crypto nazis”. ---
**Author:** ![Jaledin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Jaledin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jaledin)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2012, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-jews-hold-grudge-against-germans/628668/52 "2012-07-22T22:09:22Z")
Hate speech against Germans? It’s not a big secret that not just one but several German companies participated in the pro-German war effort in WWII. I fail to see how this is hate speech any more than saying French make kind of weird cars or English boil their rabbits too much. FWIW Wagner and all of the German romantics more than earned their keep – it’s a valuable tradition Germans and the dual-monarchy cats kept alive and indeed with which they invigorated European civilization. I wouldn’t want a world without Goethe, von Kleist, Wagner in it. But there’s a price to be paid, and that price is one the German people have been struggling with for quite some time. ---
**Author:** ![Jaledin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Jaledin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jaledin)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2012, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-jews-hold-grudge-against-germans/628668/53 "2012-07-22T22:18:59Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > One of his favorite conductors at Beyreuth was Jewish. That is true. Theodor Adorno (a Jew, FTR, if you didn’t know), in one of his many erudite essays about Wagner recounted an anecdote of Wagner, I suppose at the era somewhat cutting, in our age of complaining about Hollywood moguls, subtly berating this particular conductor. Wagner was not a nice guy, probably – but if one of the most adept cultural critics who happened to be both Jewish and a prominent composer and scholar could find something there’s a bit more there. er, it might be a clue there’s a bit more there. Run and hide his book on Alban Berg was better and more affectionate! ---
**Author:** ![Bozuit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/edb3f5/32.png) [@Bozuit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bozuit)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2012, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-jews-hold-grudge-against-germans/628668/54 "2012-07-22T22:31:56Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > There was no real pound of flesh taken from either country… And you know how much Jews _love_ to get pounds of flesh. > [@Jaledin](#): > > I know more than one person who would never buy a German car, including me, and more than a few, including me, who relish making fun of Germans. > > So, yeah. No shit a lot of Jews don’t like those crypto-Nazi motherfuckers. > [@Jaledin](#): > > Hate speech against Germans? It’s not a big secret that not just one but several German companies participated in the pro-German war effort in WWII. I fail to see how this is hate speech any more than saying French make kind of weird cars or English boil their rabbits too much. Even if it’s not “hate speech” it’s still a pretty dumb thing to say and reflects poorly on you. > [@Farmer\_Jane](#): > > I really hate questions like this and I wish people would stop separating ‘Jew’ from ‘insert nationality here’. > [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > I think she’s referring to people who for example said one person was half-German and half-Jewish without identifying the latter’s nationality. Incidentally the idea of Jews as separate from other people of the country was the idea the Nazis used. _Stops Godwinizing_ Surely those are the only two relevant identities, given the question? Would the question “Do Christians hold a grudge against Romans?” be unreasonable in any way? Would it be unreasonable to say that you know a Christian who lives in Rome when answering that question, without mentioning that he happens to be German too? > [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Well, I’m a plain ol’ white-ass Gentile-American, and I kind of hold a grudge against Germany. Hearing German spoken gives me the shivers. I think every German alive today should thank their lucky stars that their country isn’t a steaming crater. Really? > [@carnivorousplant](#): > > So, I can make soap out of your Mother and if I give you a Volkswagen, it will be okay?. I don’t think anyone is saying compensation makes it OK, but would it be better if they just did nothing? ---
**Author:** ![KarlGauss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/karlgauss/32/3713_2.png) [@KarlGauss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGauss)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2012, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-jews-hold-grudge-against-germans/628668/55 "2012-07-22T22:38:15Z")
> [@Confused dart cum](#): > > Obviously I do not think the holocaust should be forgotten. I guess I misunderstood when you said, “Forgive and forget”. ---
**Author:** ![Jaledin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Jaledin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jaledin)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2012, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-jews-hold-grudge-against-germans/628668/56 "2012-07-22T22:53:06Z")
> [@Bozuit](#): > > Really? No nested quotes, so that was by Bo9zuit about RandRover about his not liking to hear German. I second this. None of my grandparents (one Jewish one not) spoke German except just to get by, but my former marriage-in-law family spoke German/Yiddish – kind of a mix – and German’s a fantastic language. Flexible, a little bit odd for people from Romance languages – but why on earth would the sound of a good language in which much of the greatest literature (albeit sometimes or often maybe of the oppressors) be so distasteful? That Rand said it makes him sick but I don’t know why. It was good for the Hebrew children (heh) until it wasn’t – lots of good stuff in there. Anyway no serious mathematician or logician or philosopher for most of the twentieth century didn’t know German intimately. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2012, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-jews-hold-grudge-against-germans/628668/57 "2012-07-22T23:18:53Z")
> [@Carnivorousplant](#): > > So, I can make soap out of your Mother and if I give you a Volkswagen, it will be okay?. > [@Bozuit](#): > > I don’t think anyone is saying compensation makes it OK, but would it be better if they just did nothing? At my Aunt’s by marriage apartment pool, my five year old nephew went up to a woman who was obviously a survivor and asked her, “Why did you write on yourself?” I just can’t deal with some stuff. ---
**Author:** ![Simple\_Linctus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Simple\_Linctus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simple_Linctus)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-jews-hold-grudge-against-germans/628668/58 "2012-07-23T00:11:15Z")
> [@KarlGauss](#): > > I guess I misunderstood when you said, “Forgive and forget”. I see what you mean. It’s a stock phrase if you’re not familiar with it. Perhaps my sentiment could be better expressed as “Forgive, and act as though you have forgotten when interacting with people who never did the relevant thing - but if people (whether they are descendants of the people who did the relevant thing or are not) start doing it or something similar again, then don’t forget the lessons of history” Actually, I don’t think that was better expressed. Seriously, what would you have me do? ---
**Author:** ![Jaledin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Jaledin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jaledin)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-jews-hold-grudge-against-germans/628668/59 "2012-07-23T00:25:34Z")
Turn into Hannah Arendt? Heidegger’s lamplightee? ---
**Author:** ![Simple\_Linctus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Simple\_Linctus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simple_Linctus)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-jews-hold-grudge-against-germans/628668/60 "2012-07-23T00:31:56Z")
I don’t know exactly what you mean by that but I have read the banality of evil (if I’m right in thinking who Hannah Arendt is). Heidegger I know basically nothing about at all, **but** luckily for you for reasons that are not very interesting and are certainly not very relevant I usually read a little bit about philosophy every day so I shall read up on him tomorrow and see if that includes stuff about “lamplightee”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-jews-hold-grudge-against-germans/628668.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-jews-hold-grudge-against-germans/628668.md?page=4)