# Do Jews Really Expect the Messiah to Come? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 20, 2005, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-jews-really-expect-the-messiah-to-come/327121 "2005-10-20T18:42:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![deevee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/57b2e6/32.png) [@deevee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/deevee)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2005, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-jews-really-expect-the-messiah-to-come/327121/1 "2005-10-20T18:42:10Z")
Or is it more of a symbolic thing? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2005, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-jews-really-expect-the-messiah-to-come/327121/2 "2005-10-20T19:03:19Z")
Orthodox and most Conservative Jews do. Reform, maybe not so many. ---
**Author:** ![anyrose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/54ee81/32.png) [@anyrose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/anyrose)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2005, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-jews-really-expect-the-messiah-to-come/327121/3 "2005-10-20T19:09:09Z")
> [@Captain Amazing](#): > > Orthodox and most Conservative Jews do. Reform, maybe not so many. true - the Reform don’t expect it, as such, but invoke it a lot ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2005, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-jews-really-expect-the-messiah-to-come/327121/4 "2005-10-20T19:16:49Z")
We Orthodox Jews certainly do. I’m pretty sure that the official position of the Conservative movement was non-belief in a Messiah as an individual, but they still believe divine / historical forces will bring about a Messianic age. ---
**Author:** ![anyrose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/54ee81/32.png) [@anyrose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/anyrose)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2005, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-jews-really-expect-the-messiah-to-come/327121/5 "2005-10-20T19:20:23Z")
while we’re on the subject of beliefs perhaps you could answer my question: the immaculate conception - I’ve heard two explanations a) Mary had not known a man’s touch when she bacame pregnant with Jesus (I believe this is the more popular of the two) or b) Mary herself was the result of a virgin birth, therefore she was without sin and qualified to bring forth the savior Which is correct? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2005, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-jews-really-expect-the-messiah-to-come/327121/6 "2005-10-20T19:24:17Z")
> [@anyrose](#): > > while we’re on the subject of beliefs perhaps you could answer my question: > > the immaculate conception - I’ve heard two explanations > a) Mary had not known a man’s touch when she bacame pregnant with Jesus (I believe this is the more popular of the two) > or b) Mary herself was the result of a virgin birth, therefore she was without sin and qualified to bring forth the savior > Which is correct? I’m pretty sure it’s neither. The Immaculate Conception says that Mary was conceived the usual way, by male/female sex, but that when she was conceived, she didn’t have the “original sin” that everybody else who ever lived had. So, it was an “immaculate” conception, untainted by original sin. ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2005, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-jews-really-expect-the-messiah-to-come/327121/7 "2005-10-20T19:25:29Z")
> [@anyrose](#): > > while we’re on the subject of beliefs perhaps you could answer my question: > > the immaculate conception - I’ve heard two explanations > a) Mary had not known a man’s touch when she bacame pregnant with Jesus (I believe this is the more popular of the two) > or b) Mary herself was the result of a virgin birth, therefore she was without sin and qualified to bring forth the savior > Which is correct? Neither. The immaculate conception refers to the conception of Mary, not the conception of Jesus. It means (according to Christian theology) that she was born free from the taint of Original Sin. What this has to do with questions about Jews and the messiah is beyond me. Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![anyrose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/54ee81/32.png) [@anyrose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/anyrose)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2005, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-jews-really-expect-the-messiah-to-come/327121/8 "2005-10-20T19:28:01Z")
> [@zev\_steinhardt](#): > > Neither. > > The immaculate conception refers to the conception of Mary, not the conception of Jesus. It means (according to Christian theology) that she was born free from the taint of Original Sin. > > What this has to do with questions about Jews and the messiah is beyond me. > > Zev Steinhardt it doesn’t - it was just something I’ve often wondered about and took this chance to ask ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2005, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-jews-really-expect-the-messiah-to-come/327121/9 "2005-10-20T19:32:09Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > I’m pretty sure that the official position of the Conservative movement was non-belief in a Messiah as an individual, but they still believe divine / historical forces will bring about a Messianic age. I think it’s more that the Conservatives all believe in a Messianic age, but believing how that age will come about is left up to the individual Jew. So, some Conservatives believe in a literal messiah, and others believe in it coming about through historical or divine forces. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2005, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-jews-really-expect-the-messiah-to-come/327121/10 "2005-10-20T19:32:37Z")
> [@anyrose](#): > > it doesn’t - it was just something I’ve often wondered about and took this chance to ask You mean, now that you had the attention of Jewish posters on the board? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Anne\_Neville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Anne\_Neville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anne_Neville)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2005, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-jews-really-expect-the-messiah-to-come/327121/11 "2005-10-20T19:36:55Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > I’m pretty sure that the official position of the Conservative movement was non-belief in a Messiah as an individual, but they still believe divine / historical forces will bring about a Messianic age. I’m Conservative, and I’m kind of torn between belief in a Messiah and a Messianic age. If there will be a Messiah, though, I believe he or she will be a person like everyone else, not a god or a son/daughter of God (well, except in the sense that we are all children of God, but you get the point). Someone would have to restore the Temple, bring about world peace, end discrimination, and end poverty, perhaps among other things, to be the Messiah. I like to think that, in the Messianic age, being plump will once again be fashionable, as will clothes and hairstyles that require an absolute minimum of effort (makeup will be out). 😃 ---
**Author:** ![anyrose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/54ee81/32.png) [@anyrose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/anyrose)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2005, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-jews-really-expect-the-messiah-to-come/327121/12 "2005-10-20T19:40:26Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > You mean, now that you had the attention of Jewish posters on the board? 😉 no - i was asking a question of Christianity as a Jew, I never learned the story of the immaculate conception. It’s intereting , tho, isn’t it (and I think I’ve now hijacked this thread for which I apologize) that in pop culture, the first misinterpretation is often taken as valid In specific - in Dogma, Rufus, the 13th apostle (so we know right away there are fallicies - that plus it was written and directed by Kevin Smith - but I digress) says “Mary gave birth to Jesus without never knowing a man’s touch” (which is where I got the wording from) But thank you \*\*Captain Amazing \*\* for providing the answer ---
**Author:** ![Foxy40](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a9a28c/32.png) [@Foxy40](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Foxy40)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2005, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-jews-really-expect-the-messiah-to-come/327121/13 "2005-10-20T20:36:33Z")
> [@anyrose](#): > > no - i was asking a question of Christianity > as a Jew, I never learned the story of the immaculate conception. It’s intereting , tho, isn’t it (and I think I’ve now hijacked this thread for which I apologize) that in pop culture, the first misinterpretation is often taken as valid > In specific - in Dogma, Rufus, the 13th apostle (so we know right away there are fallicies - that plus it was written and directed by Kevin Smith - but I digress) says “Mary gave birth to Jesus without never knowing a man’s touch” (which is where I got the wording from) > > But thank you \*\*Captain Amazing \*\* for providing the answer This should explain it to you anyrose. [http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07674d.htm](http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07674d.htm) ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2005, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-jews-really-expect-the-messiah-to-come/327121/14 "2005-10-20T20:36:39Z")
The Reform Rabbi’s talk about a Messianic Era that will be coming sometime in the future. I have heard it described as a time of total world peace. ---
**Author:** ![Punoqllads](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d2c977/32.png) [@Punoqllads](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Punoqllads)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2005, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-jews-really-expect-the-messiah-to-come/327121/15 "2005-10-20T20:42:00Z")
> [@Anne Neville](#): > > If there will be a Messiah, though, I believe he or she will be a person like everyone else, not a god or a son/daughter of God (well, except in the sense that we are all children of God, but you get the point). Someone would have to restore the Temple, bring about world peace, end discrimination, and end poverty, perhaps among other things, to be the Messiah. This is actually the mainstream belief among Jews, though some would say that the Messiah can’t come until the world has already been made that way by humanity. The concept of God fathering the Messiah is completely anathema to the Jewish faith and, to me, smacks of pagan mythology. ---
**Author:** ![HPL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3da27b/32.png) [@HPL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HPL)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2005, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-jews-really-expect-the-messiah-to-come/327121/16 "2005-10-20T20:55:23Z")
> [@zev\_steinhardt](#): > > Neither. > > The immaculate conception refers to the conception of Mary, not the conception of Jesus. It means (according to Christian theology) that she was born free from the taint of Original Sin. > > Zev Steinhardt That’s wierd. I was always taught she was a virgin when he had Jesus(apparently impregnated by the holy ghost), but no mention made of original sin. Presumably she was born like everyone else. > [@zev\_steinhardt](#): > > What this has to do with questions about Jews and the messiah is beyond me. [Futurama] Fry: So you don’t believe in Robot Jesus? Robot Rabbi: We believe that he existed and was a well programmed robot, but he was not our messiah. [/Futurama] ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2005, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-jews-really-expect-the-messiah-to-come/327121/17 "2005-10-20T20:57:34Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > You mean, now that you had the attention of Jewish posters on the board? 😉 Well, he could be sure of getting an unbiased answer! :smack: ---
**Author:** ![The\_Scrivener](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@The\_Scrivener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Scrivener)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2005, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-jews-really-expect-the-messiah-to-come/327121/18 "2005-10-20T21:38:29Z")
With all due respect to a previous poster who referred to the future messiah as possibly female, how realistic is that, given the pervasive sexual discri… er, _segregation_ in Orthodox and Conservative customs? How can a woman ever be the Messiah if she was precluded from certain fields of religious studies or clerical opportunities? How do Jews expect to know the Messiah when he [He?] arrives? Is he expected to declare it himself, or will rabbis the world over arrive at a consensus opinion about him? Is he likely to be a political or military figure, or an eminent rabbi or religious scholar? Is he expected to be the Messiah by dint of God’s favor, or by His imbuing him or appointing him as a prophet? Will he be expected to be entirely or largely free of sin, or will a fair amount of human frailty be tolerated? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2005, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-jews-really-expect-the-messiah-to-come/327121/19 "2005-10-20T21:52:48Z")
> [@The Scrivener](#): > > How do Jews expect to know the Messiah when he [He?] arrives? Is he expected to declare it himself, or will rabbis the world over arrive at a consensus opinion about him? Is he likely to be a political or military figure, or an eminent rabbi or religious scholar? Is he expected to be the Messiah by dint of God’s favor, or by His imbuing him or appointing him as a prophet? Will he be expected to be entirely or largely free of sin, or will a fair amount of human frailty be tolerated? The messiah will be a man. All the regnant kings of Israel were men, and I’m pretty sure a woman can’t legally inherit the throne. (Athaliah doesn’t really count). The messiah is a king, descended from King David, who will rule an indepedent Israel consisting of the borders of Israel at its height, rebuild the temple, make all the Jews follow torah law, punish Israel’s enemies, and usher in a state of world peace. ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2005, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-jews-really-expect-the-messiah-to-come/327121/20 "2005-10-20T21:54:25Z")
> [@The Scrivener](#): > > How do Jews expect to know the Messiah when he [He?] arrives? Is he expected to declare it himself, or will rabbis the world over arrive at a consensus opinion about him? Is he likely to be a political or military figure, or an eminent rabbi or religious scholar? Is he expected to be the Messiah by dint of God’s favor, or by His imbuing him or appointing him as a prophet? Will he be expected to be entirely or largely free of sin, or will a fair amount of human frailty be tolerated? The Messiah will be a human being, just like you and I. As a human being, he will be fallible and not perfect. The Messiah will be known because there are several tasks that he must accomplish. By accomplishing the tasks, he will be acknowledged as the messiah. Maimondies (Laws of Kings 11) lists them (translation mine-- in brackets are my additions) > [@](#): > > The king messiah will arise and will restore the Davidic monarchy as it was of old and the country as it was, and build the Temple, and gather in the exiles of Israel. And restore the laws [of the Torah] as they were earlier. And bring sacrifices and set up the Sabbatical and Jubilee years and all the other commandments listed in the Torah. Maimondies continues later on… > [@](#): > > If a king arises from the Davidic dynasty who adheres to the Torah and performs the commandments as David his father, as specified in the Written and Oral Torahs, and he forces of all Israel do to so [follow the commandments] and strengthens their observance, and fights wars for God, he is a presumptive messiah. If he succeeds, subdues the surrounding nations and builds the Temple in it’s place, then he is definitely the messiah. > > If he does not succeed or is killed, then it is known that this is not the one the Torah promised and he is like any of the other kings of the Davidic line that were good but died. Zev Steinhardt [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-jews-really-expect-the-messiah-to-come/327121.md?page=2)