# Do Jews Truly Believe in the Mosaic Law? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 3, 2011, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-jews-truly-believe-in-the-mosaic-law/595027 "2011-09-03T03:59:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![MichaelEmouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/michaelemouse/32/101_2.png) [@MichaelEmouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MichaelEmouse)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2011, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-jews-truly-believe-in-the-mosaic-law/595027/21 "2011-09-04T05:08:05Z")
I also wonder how one could observe the following mitzvoth while being an atheist: ([A List of the 613 Mitzvot (Commandments) - Judaism 101 (JewFAQ)](http://www.jewfaq.org/613.htm)) 1.To know that G-d exists (Ex. 20:2; Deut. 5:6) 6.To know that G-d is One, a complete Unity (Deut. 6:4) 7.To love G-d (Deut. 6:5) 8.To fear Him reverently (Deut. 6:13; 10:20) 22.To pray to G-d (Ex. 23:25; Deut. 6:13) The first one especially, seems like it would be an obstacle. ---
**Author:** ![Anchuldigs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ed8c4c/32.png) [@Anchuldigs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anchuldigs)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2011, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-jews-truly-believe-in-the-mosaic-law/595027/22 "2011-09-04T05:55:54Z")
To try to answer the OP’s question: 1. Observant Jews apply the Oral Law to the Written Law. So where you might think from just reading the Bible that a girl who gets raped in the city is executed, an observant Jew who studies the Talmud will know that it’s really really really not that simple. As to whether they are ‘good laws’ (whatever that means), if God said so than I guess they’re ‘good’ even I don’t understand the reasoning behind it. 2. The laws of the Torah certainly are still followed by observant Jews (to the extent that is possible nowadays) so I assume you’re referring to capital punishment. The answer is no. Only the Great Sanhedrin (Supreme Court?) had the authority to sentence someone to death. With the end of the Great Sanhedrin came the end of capital punishment. 3. Not that I know of. ---
**Author:** ![brocks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7feea3/32.png) [@brocks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brocks)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2011, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-jews-truly-believe-in-the-mosaic-law/595027/23 "2011-09-04T06:50:15Z")
> [@Anchuldigs](#): > > To try to answer the OP’s question: > > 1. Observant Jews apply the Oral Law to the Written Law. So where you might think from just reading the Bible that a girl who gets raped in the city is executed, an observant Jew who studies the Talmud will know that it’s really really really not that simple. Thanks for your response; that confirms what Capt. Amazing said. Sorry if I sound stupid about this, but apparently I’m not alone, because in many, many debates with Christians about Mosaic Law, not one of them has ever mentioned this, and it seems to me to be a much better answer than the claim that Jesus meant something other than what he said in Matthew 5. > [@](#): > > As to whether they are ‘good laws’ (whatever that means), if God said so than I guess they’re ‘good’ even I don’t understand the reasoning behind it. Fair enough. > [@](#): > > 1. The laws of the Torah certainly are still followed by observant Jews (to the extent that is possible nowadays) so I assume you’re referring to capital punishment. Yes. Not just now, but through history. > [@](#): > > The answer is no. Only the Great Sanhedrin (Supreme Court?) had the authority to sentence someone to death. Is that from the Torah, or did the priests create their own authority? Not that there’s anything wrong with that; from what I’m learning here, it seems that Judaism is pretty similar to Catholicism, with its concept of the magisterium telling believers how to interpret the scriptures. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2011, 10:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-jews-truly-believe-in-the-mosaic-law/595027/24 "2011-09-04T10:21:05Z")
Why is it that when “everybody knows” something, it’s wrong? There is no death penalty in Islamic law for premarital sex. Girls do get murdered for it, though, which is against the law. Of course, the difference between a legal code and extrajudicial executions done by vigilantes is subtle and hard to see, so of course they’re easily confused. \ Ofra Haza’s song “Daw Da Hiya” is about a young woman in Yemen who was condemned to death by a Jewish religious court for getting pregnant premaritally. “Tradition.” The song concludes: “In a time and place where a woman can’t show her face, her life is ruled by men. That shouldn’t happen again.” ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2011, 11:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-jews-truly-believe-in-the-mosaic-law/595027/25 "2011-09-04T11:26:43Z")
We had an immense thread on this subject (and posting from my phone can’t easily find). I assure, it’s possible as many people in that thread attested to and explained, including me. Without hijacking this thread, there are many many ways that being an atheist is completely consistent with being an observant Jew. In Judaism actions supplant beliefs. ---
**Author:** ![Keeve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f07891/32.png) [@Keeve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Keeve)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2011, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-jews-truly-believe-in-the-mosaic-law/595027/26 "2011-09-04T13:42:37Z")
> [@brocks](#): > > But isn’t one of the laws to love God with all your heart, soul, and strength? So how can you do that without believing in him? Yes, it is. And this question is asked not only on forums like The Straight Dope, but by the classical rabbis themselves. My favorite answer is this: All active commandments involve some sort of prep work. For example, one can’t do charity unless one finds a needy person, and one can’t eat matzah unless one first bakes or buys some. So too, one should not expect belief/love of God to be automatic, but rather one should expect to have to work on it somehow. (How to do that is a whole 'nother conversation.) ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2011, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-jews-truly-believe-in-the-mosaic-law/595027/27 "2011-09-04T13:59:39Z")
IvoryTowerDenizen: > [@](#): > > Without hijacking this thread, there are many many ways that being an atheist is completely consistent with being an observant Jew. In Judaism actions supplant beliefs. I have no idea where this comes from, but it’s entirely wrong. It is certainly possible for an atheist to perform certain meritorious actions, but “completely consistent” it is not. In Judaism (and clearly we are referring to the Torah-observant kind), actions do not “supplant” beliefs, they are an expression of belief. There are plenty of actions that, if done without the proper intention in mind (prayer being one of the most obvious), are invalid. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2011, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-jews-truly-believe-in-the-mosaic-law/595027/28 "2011-09-04T14:08:23Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > IvoryTowerDenizen: > > I have no idea where this comes from, but it’s entirely wrong. It is certainly possible for an atheist to perform certain meritorious actions, but “completely consistent” it is not. In Judaism (and clearly we are referring to the Torah-observant kind), actions do not “supplant” beliefs, they are an expression of belief. There are plenty of actions that, if done without the proper intention in mind (prayer being one of the most obvious), are invalid. I do not want to engage in a full blown hijack here. This was hashed out in the thread I alluded too. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2011, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-jews-truly-believe-in-the-mosaic-law/595027/29 "2011-09-04T17:28:52Z")
Fine, I’ll go with the non-hijack. I don’t recall any thread that reached such a “conclusion”, I must have not been paying attention to the boards that day. To de-hijack, re: question 3 of the OP: The only way Mosaic law will be enforced again is when the Messiah comes. And I don’t think that’ll end up as a “two-state” solution. ---
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2011, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-jews-truly-believe-in-the-mosaic-law/595027/30 "2011-09-04T21:12:01Z")
> [@brocks](#): > > Yes, he really did, in Matthew 5:18. I leave it to Christians to explain it away, but obviously they have found a way. Just as they have found a way to explain why Matthew 21:21-22 doesn’t mean what it plainly says – that believers will get whatever they pray for, even if it’s something mean, like killing a fig tree just for not having fruit out of season. If you want to debate either verse, feel free to start a thread in GD. It’s quite obvious to me that this is the beginning of a long discourse, which concludes thusly: > [@](#): > > 6:12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2011, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-jews-truly-believe-in-the-mosaic-law/595027/31 "2011-09-04T21:54:56Z")
When (if???) I get Internet back at home, due to Irene, I will link to the thread. It started unrelated to Judaism and atheism, but that’s where it ended up. Obviously nothing was definitively solved, but the basis for various viewpoints was hashed out. It went on for pages and pages. ---
**Author:** ![brocks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7feea3/32.png) [@brocks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brocks)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2011, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-jews-truly-believe-in-the-mosaic-law/595027/32 "2011-09-04T22:09:01Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > When (if???) I get Internet back at home, due to Irene, I will link to the thread. It started unrelated to > Judaism and atheism, but that’s where it ended up. Obviously nothing was definitively solved, but the basis for various viewpoints was hashed out. It went on for pages and pages. Thank you, I will be interested to read it. ---
**Author:** ![My\_Freakin\_Back\_Is\_Killing\_Me](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@My\_Freakin\_Back\_Is\_Killing\_Me](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/My_Freakin_Back_Is_Killing_Me)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2011, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-jews-truly-believe-in-the-mosaic-law/595027/33 "2011-09-04T22:53:49Z")
I believe this is the thread **IvoryTowerDenizen** was referring to: [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=603574&highlight=jews+pass](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=603574&highlight=jews+pass) If not, at least there is some discussion of that topic starting a few pages in. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2011, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-jews-truly-believe-in-the-mosaic-law/595027/34 "2011-09-04T23:11:03Z")
Yup, that’s it. Thank you, since who really knows when Comcast will get to my neighborhood… sigh. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2011, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-jews-truly-believe-in-the-mosaic-law/595027/35 "2011-09-04T23:39:02Z")
> [@brocks](#): > > I know this sounds like a stupid question, so bear with me while I explain the motivation. > > Everybody “knows” that Muslims have a lot of bizarre laws, especially about women. Killing them for having pre-marital sex, for example. Many Christians point to these laws as proof that there is something “wrong” with Muslims. > > A surprisingly large number of Christians have never read their own scriptures (except for selected highlights), and are unaware that many of these laws come straight from the Bible, from which Muhammad borrowed freely. When informed of it, and asked point-blank if they are in favor of executing homosexuals, or women who are raped within city limits, Christians often claim that Jesus made the Mosaic law obsolete. Jesus himself never said he did, and in fact he said that every jot and tittle of Mosaic Law should be obeyed until heaven and earth pass away, but that’s for another thread. > > What I’m asking here is, since Jews do not believe that Jesus made Mosaic law obsolete, what is their opinion of these “barbaric” laws? How literally do they take them, and how eager are they to see them enforced? > > I’m posting this in GQ rather than GD because I don’t want to debate whether the laws are actually barbaric or not. Anyone is welcome to debate them in another thread, but I am hoping for informed and objective answers to the following questions: > > 1. Do most observant Jews believe that all of the laws in the Pentateuch that demand execution for homosexuality, adultery, cursing your parents, doing work on the Sabbath, being raped in a city, etc., are good laws? > > 2. Have there been any Jewish communities after the 1st century where such laws were in force and followed to the letter? > > 3. Is there any significant movement for a two-state solution to the Palestinian conflict that would result in a truly Jewish state where these laws would be enforced? > > Thank you. 1. No.\* 2. Doubtful, as the Talmud says a bet din that puts even one man to death in 30 years has done something wrong. 3. How do you mean, a ‘truly Jewish state’? There are very fringe movements in Israel that advocate for halachah, but they are tiny and extremist and not tolerated. Jewish law says that we must follow the laws of the land. \*\* Also, there is no law that says you should be stoned for being raped in a city. There is a law in Devarim that says women who commit adultery should be stoned. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2011, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-jews-truly-believe-in-the-mosaic-law/595027/36 "2011-09-04T23:42:15Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > I have heard at least one Jewish person describe the laws themselves as good, but that the punishments were optional for some reason (specifically death related ones). I’ve also heard some say that the punishments are valid, but can’t be performed while there is no temple and high priest. > > I just bring these up to see if anyone can clarify. It would also make sense to put rapists to death in a desert where there were no physical jails. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2011, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-jews-truly-believe-in-the-mosaic-law/595027/37 "2011-09-04T23:45:56Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > IvoryTowerDenizen: > > I have no idea where this comes from, but it’s entirely wrong. It is certainly possible for an atheist to perform certain meritorious actions, but “completely consistent” it is not. In Judaism (and clearly we are referring to the Torah-observant kind), actions do not “supplant” beliefs, they are an expression of belief. There are plenty of actions that, if done without the proper intention in mind (prayer being one of the most obvious), are invalid. Eh; no. You can be a Torah-observant Shomer Shabbos Jew and be an atheist. There’s a ‘fake it til you make it’ concept in Judaism - even in Orthodoxy. If you express blasphemy, however, you’re in the red. But Ivory was talking about observant Jews like her and myself who don’t necessarily believe in God - or the divine inspiration that is the perfect Torah (a latter view that is consistent with the majority of Jewry - Recon, Reform, and Conservative). ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-jews-truly-believe-in-the-mosaic-law/595027/38 "2011-09-05T00:16:59Z")
Citizen Pained, I already agreed not to hijack the thread. But I will respond to say that is true that there is a concept that one should go through the motions of keeping Mitzvos even if he doesn’t have faith, but that is as a PATH to faith, not as a validation of faithless observance as an end in itself. To call one’s self Torah observant while maintaining atheist belief is not within the scope of that concept you brought up. ---
**Author:** ![brocks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7feea3/32.png) [@brocks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brocks)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-jews-truly-believe-in-the-mosaic-law/595027/39 "2011-09-05T00:34:25Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > Yup, that’s it. Thank you, since who really knows when Comcast will get to my neighborhood… sigh. In an attempt to keep this thread on track and in GQ, I have posted a [response](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14219060&postcount=655) to you in that thread. ---
**Author:** ![Anchuldigs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ed8c4c/32.png) [@Anchuldigs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anchuldigs)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-jews-truly-believe-in-the-mosaic-law/595027/40 "2011-09-05T00:52:54Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > 1. Doubtful, as the Talmud says a bet din that puts even one man to death in 30 years has done something wrong. I assume you’re referring to Makkos 7a. It’s once every seven years (R’ Elazar ben Azaryah says 70). And whether that Sanhedrin would be considered destructive because it killed too much or because it didn’t kill enough is a debate in the Talmud there. Besides, the Sanhedrin had ways of killing people for whom the procedural requirements to have 2 witnesses warn, warning accepted etc. had not been met but who the Sanhedrin knew was guilty. Those people did not get off the hook. I think it was either R’ Yochanan ben Zakai or R’ Elazar ben Azaryah who used to turn them over to the Romans for punishment. Other times the Sanhedrin would take care of it themselves but would use an indirect method of execution. You can see Makkos for more details. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-jews-truly-believe-in-the-mosaic-law/595027.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-jews-truly-believe-in-the-mosaic-law/595027.md?page=3)