# Do Jews Truly Believe in the Mosaic Law? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 3, 2011, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-jews-truly-believe-in-the-mosaic-law/595027 "2011-09-03T03:59:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-jews-truly-believe-in-the-mosaic-law/595027/41 "2011-09-05T01:04:59Z")
> [@brocks](#): > > However, if I am understanding your posts correctly, the Torah is not as absolute as I thought, since the rabbis apparently can and do add enough conditions to make conviction virtually impossible. > > Am I understanding you correctly? You asked for answers, people are giving them to you, and yet you’re still having issues. The other day, I told my son to be quiet as I was reading. Did I ever give him permission to raise his volume after? No. It just happened. Just because a law is not mentioned in the Torah does not mean it should not be so. Likewise, just because something was once an ancient law does not make it so today. We’ve explained that the Talmud has given us laws, customs, and interpretations. Hell, we live in a world where chicken isn’t pareve. Laws evolve, change, and are re-interpreted. Consider the U.S. Constitution - things today that are not ‘Constitutional’ were fine and dandy 50 years ago. Finally - again - I tell you that only Orthodox strictly believe that the Torah is 100 per cent given by God, and not even they will tell you to put a woman to death for adultery! No; they will just quickly grant her husband a divorce. Actually, it is _mandated_ to divorce your wife if she cheats on you - giving further credence to the assertion that stoning was rarely practiced. (After all, why mandate you must divorce a wife who is apparently going to be put to death, anyway?) ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-jews-truly-believe-in-the-mosaic-law/595027/42 "2011-09-05T01:06:59Z")
> [@Anchuldigs](#): > > I assume you’re referring to Makkos 7a. It’s once every seven years (R’ Elazar ben Azaryah says 70). I stand corrected; thank you! The point is - the Talmud is full of restrictions on capital punishment and there are very few cases in all of the Tenach that describe the practice. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-jews-truly-believe-in-the-mosaic-law/595027/43 "2011-09-05T01:08:34Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > Citizen Pained, I already agreed not to hijack the thread. But I will respond to say that is true that there is a concept that one should go through the motions of keeping Mitzvos even if he doesn’t have faith, but that is as a PATH to faith, not as a validation of faithless observance as an end in itself. To call one’s self Torah observant while maintaining atheist belief is not within the scope of that concept you brought up. Keeping mitzvot is a path to righteousness or being like God. Faith will come and go. This is a classic Hillel v. Shammai argument we have here! ---
**Author:** ![Anchuldigs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ed8c4c/32.png) [@Anchuldigs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anchuldigs)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-jews-truly-believe-in-the-mosaic-law/595027/44 "2011-09-05T01:48:55Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > I stand corrected; thank you! > > The point is - the Talmud is full of restrictions on capital punishment and there are very few cases in all of the Tenach that describe the practice. If I understand the gist of what you’re saying than you’re saying that capital punishment was a rare occurrence back in the day. I don’t know where you get that from. Just because specific cases of capital punishment aren’t mentioned in the Tanach or the Talmud doesn’t mean it didn’t happen often. I’m not saying that it happened frequently, but from the fact that the Talmud describes alternate indirect methods of capital punishment where the prerequisites for regular capital punishment weren’t met indicates that it probably wasn’t terribly rare. ---
**Author:** ![brocks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7feea3/32.png) [@brocks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brocks)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-jews-truly-believe-in-the-mosaic-law/595027/45 "2011-09-05T01:50:11Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > You asked for answers, people are giving them to you, and yet you’re still having issues. So I should just accept the first anonymous answer I get and shut up? People have given conflicting answers; people have given answers that I requested clarification for and never got; few if any of the answers given have been accompanied by citations; and at least one answer was pretty clearly a controversial personal opinion. Heck, even your infallible posts have been disputed by people who seem to know something about the subject. So pardon me all to hell if I keep trying to find things out. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-jews-truly-believe-in-the-mosaic-law/595027/46 "2011-09-05T01:55:09Z")
I’d guess it was rare as Jews in the Talmudic era would have also been living - sometimes with careful steps - under other religious laws/laws of the land. I never said it was rare 4,000 years ago - but it doesn’t makes sense that it’s really never made a point of. If adultery is/was a HUGE deal in Judaism, why not make an example or two out of people? The only capital punishment that sticks out in my head is of God’s. Finally, if there was a law mandating that you divorce your wife who has slept with another man, then it does beg the question of why she wasn’t automatically put to death. There’s no real way of us knowing – but that wasn’t the OP’s question. Sociologically speaking, those were ‘good’ laws for maintaining law, order and identity amongst other tribes (and were common in the region/time anyway). But there is something called rabbinic law and we tend to follow it. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-jews-truly-believe-in-the-mosaic-law/595027/47 "2011-09-05T01:57:16Z")
> [@brocks](#): > > So I should just accept the first anonymous answer I get and shut up? > > People have given conflicting answers; people have given answers that I requested clarification for and never got; few if any of the answers given have been accompanied by citations; and at least one answer was pretty clearly a controversial personal opinion. Heck, even your infallible posts have been disputed by people who seem to know something about the subject. > > So pardon me all to hell if I keep trying to find things out. > [@brocks](#): > > 1. Do most observant Jews believe that all of the laws in the Pentateuch that demand execution for homosexuality, adultery, cursing your parents, doing work on the Sabbath, being raped in a city, etc., are good laws? No. We follow rabbinic law. > [@](#): > > 1. Have there been any Jewish communities after the 1st century where such laws were in force and followed to the letter? Not that I’m aware of - plus they’d be under the laws of another. > [@](#): > > 1. Is there any significant movement for a two-state solution to the Palestinian conflict that would result in a truly Jewish state where these laws would be enforced? > > Thank you. There already is a Jewish state and no such laws exist, so you don’t make any sense at all. Plus a ‘two-state solution’ does not include the exile of non-Jews from Israel. Does that help you? I answered. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![brocks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7feea3/32.png) [@brocks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brocks)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-jews-truly-believe-in-the-mosaic-law/595027/48 "2011-09-05T02:05:19Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > I never said it was rare 4,000 years ago - but it doesn’t makes sense that it’s really never made a point of. If adultery is/was a HUGE deal in Judaism, why not make an example or two out of people? The only capital punishment that sticks out in my head is of God’s. There is a very famous example in the Christian gospels of Jesus saving a woman from being stoned for adultery. The passage is controversial for several reasons, but I’ve never heard anyone dispute it on the grounds that stoning for adultery was very rare in 1st century Israel. ---
**Author:** ![brocks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7feea3/32.png) [@brocks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brocks)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-jews-truly-believe-in-the-mosaic-law/595027/49 "2011-09-05T02:11:14Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > Does that help you? I answered. :rolleyes: Frankly, no, short answers that don’t explain anything, and that assume I’m an idiot, don’t help at all. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-jews-truly-believe-in-the-mosaic-law/595027/50 "2011-09-05T02:20:31Z")
> [@brocks](#): > > There is a very famous example in the Christian gospels You’re asking the wrong crowd. > [@brocks](#): > > Frankly, no, short answers that don’t explain anything, and that assume I’m an idiot, don’t help at all. [Rabbinic Judaism](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origins_of_Rabbinic_Judaism#Development_of_Rabbinic_Judaism) [Rabbinic Law](http://www.jewfaq.org/halakhah.htm#Differences) [The Importance of Life](http://www.jewfaq.org/death.htm#Life) Jewish law is [what you do and what you do not do](http://www.jewfaq.org/613.htm). As others have noted, there is no Temple and thus, we follow rabbinic law. But even so, according to the Talmud, it was prohibited even before the 1st C. in Judea by the Sandhrein. add: Just because Judaism does not believe in actually carrying out the death penalty does not mean the grievances you listed are not against halachah. ---
**Author:** ![brocks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7feea3/32.png) [@brocks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brocks)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-jews-truly-believe-in-the-mosaic-law/595027/51 "2011-09-05T02:30:54Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > [Rabbinic Judaism](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origins_of_Rabbinic_Judaism#Development_of_Rabbinic_Judaism) > [Rabbinic Law](http://www.jewfaq.org/halakhah.htm#Differences) > [The Importance of Life](http://www.jewfaq.org/death.htm#Life) Thank you for the cites. I found the one on the importance of life especially interesting, because it says “the unborn are not considered human life in Jewish law, thus the mother’s human life overrides.” I’ve never heard that come up when conservative Christians take concurrent strong pro-life and pro-Israel positions. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 8:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-jews-truly-believe-in-the-mosaic-law/595027/52 "2011-09-05T08:19:20Z")
I believe that OP, despite the allusions, cites, and side example of capital punishment here, could benefit how religious Jews interpret “Mosaic” law–by which I believe he means what is written in their five books of the Hebrew Bible–and the layers of commentary and their general dates **and, most importantly,** how strong they bind, up to the present day. As has been mentioned before, there is no Papacy-like body that can lay down the law or else. I believe it would help here to read the Wiki on Jewish law > **[Halakha](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halakha)** > > Halakha (/hɑːˈlɔːxə/; Hebrew: הֲלָכָה, romanized: hălāḵā, Sephardic: \[halaˈχa\]), also transliterated as halacha, halakhah, and halocho (Ashkenazic: \[haˈlɔχɔ\]), is the collective body of Jewish religious laws that are derived from the Written and Oral Torah. Halakha is based on biblical commandments (mitzvot), subsequent Talmudic and rabbinic laws, and the customs and traditions which were compiled in the many books such as the Shulchan Aruch. Halakha is often translated as "Jewish law", althou Hi... ETA: **CitizenPained** has given more detailed cites. Thanks ---
**Author:** ![psychonaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/psychonaut/32/4655_2.png) [@psychonaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychonaut)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 9:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-jews-truly-believe-in-the-mosaic-law/595027/53 "2011-09-05T09:29:11Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > IANAJ, but as I understand it, the Mosiac law does not, and was never intended to, apply to non-Jews. From [Jewish Attitudes Toward Non-Jews - Judaism 101 (JewFAQ)](http://www.jewfaq.org/gentiles.htm:) I have often heard this claim repeated, but the more one thinks about it, the more incredulous it seems. Surely a Gentile living among Jews would not enjoy immunity from Jewish law. Otherwise he could commit with impunity such crimes as selling Jewish servants into slavery (Mitzvah 191), defrauding Jewish customers (Mitzvot 181–183, 281), bearing false witness in courts (Mitzvah 241), beating his parents (Mitzvah 60), kidnapping Jews (279), and vandalizing synagogues (Mitzah 458). Is it perhaps better to formulate the claim as “Mosaic law does not apply to non-Jewish societies”? ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-jews-truly-believe-in-the-mosaic-law/595027/54 "2011-09-05T19:12:11Z")
Citizen Pained: > [@](#): > > Keeping mitzvot is a path to righteousness or being like God. Faith will come and go. This is a classic Hillel v. Shammai argument we have here Neither Hillel nor Shammai would ever argue that faith is optionial to Judaism. They may have argued on which element (going-though-motions observance or faith in mind without action) to keep if for some reason someone had to drop one of the two, but the argument is over which is the better path back to keeping both elements, not over whether one is essential and the other is not. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-jews-truly-believe-in-the-mosaic-law/595027/55 "2011-09-05T19:17:53Z")
psychonaut: > [@](#): > > Surely a Gentile living among Jews would not enjoy immunity from Jewish law. Otherwise he could commit with impunity such crimes as selling Jewish servants into slavery (Mitzvah 191), defrauding Jewish customers (Mitzvot 181–183, 281), bearing false witness in courts (Mitzvah 241), beating his parents (Mitzvah 60), kidnapping Jews (279), and vandalizing synagogues (Mitzah 458). Is it perhaps better to formulate the claim as “Mosaic law does not apply to non-Jewish societies”? A gentile living in a Jewish kingdom would be obligated to keep to the seven Noahide laws. One of these is to establish faithful courts of justice (which would preclude an allowance for bearing false witness) and another of these is theft (which would include theft by way of fraud, vandalism, assault or kidnapping). Selling Jewish slaves would in fact not be a punishable offense for a non-Jew living under Jewish sovoreignty, although the Jews are charged with an obligation to try, through monetary redemption, to free their brethren from slavery to a non-Jew. ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2011, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-jews-truly-believe-in-the-mosaic-law/595027/56 "2011-09-05T20:52:05Z")
> [@NAF1138](#): > > Ok this may seem silly and it is close to off topic even, but I feel it is important. You can be a totally observant Jew and an atheist. Now, realistically this probably doesn’t happen because I don’t see why you would keep the Halakha if you didn’t believe, but belief isn’t necessary. > > I mention it because it is a fundamentally different approach to religion than Christianity or Islam and a lot of gentiles don’t really get that. You follow the laws, you perform the rituals etc etc because they make the world, your life and the lives if those around you better. Even if you can’t see how or why, you believe that they do. You believe they do because God told you so, but ultimately that is less important than believing in the mitzvot. You perform the mitzvot even if you don’t believe in God, you are still an observant Jew. > > I know. It seems like a side bar, but it’s important. This reminds me of the time many years ago that a rabbi was trying to convince me to join his synagogue (at my mother’s request). When I said I didn’t believe in God, he answered, “Neither do I.” So I asked him why he was a rabbi and he answered that he felt called to help people. I didn’t join. I know my parents didn’t believe either. No thread that begins, “Do Jews believe…” has a chance. As my wife says: “Two Jews, three opinions.” ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2011, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-jews-truly-believe-in-the-mosaic-law/595027/57 "2011-10-20T17:36:23Z")
**Larry** , if that’s copyrighted material, turn yourself in to the mods and beg for mercy. ---
**Author:** ![gaffa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e68b1a/32.png) [@gaffa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gaffa)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2011, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-jews-truly-believe-in-the-mosaic-law/595027/58 "2011-10-20T18:06:23Z")
Anyone read A.J. Jacobs’ book _[The Year of Living Biblically](http://www.ajjacobs.com/books/yolb.asp)_, where he tried to spend a year as the ultimate fundamentalist, following every single Biblical instruction? > [@](#): > > My quest has been this: To live the ultimate Biblical life. Or more precisely, to follow the Bible as literally as possible. To obey the Ten Commandments. To be fruitful and multiply. To love my neighbor. To tithe my income. But also to abide by the oft-neglected rules: To avoid wearing clothes made of mixed fibers. To stone adulterers. And, naturally, to leave the edges of my beard unshaven (Leviticus 19:27). I am trying to obey the entire Bible, without picking and choosing. Some of the rules, he had to interpret in a very minimalist way - when he stoned an adulterer of his acquaintance, it was much more like a hot stone massage than an attempt to kill. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2011, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-jews-truly-believe-in-the-mosaic-law/595027/59 "2011-10-20T18:17:18Z")
The Orthodox Jews I know observe Talmudic law, but still rely on interpretations from rabbis. The Hassidim I know seem to rely a little more heavily on the interpretation of specific rabbis. None of them would rely on something taken directly from any part of the Old Testament without interpretation based on an analysis of the entire work. I’m not sure of the numbers, but it seems the majority of the world’s Jews are not highly religious. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2011, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-jews-truly-believe-in-the-mosaic-law/595027/60 "2011-10-20T18:20:16Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > **Larry** , if that’s copyrighted material, turn yourself in to the mods and beg for mercy. The post **TriPolar** mentions has been removed and the poster banned. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-jews-truly-believe-in-the-mosaic-law/595027.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-jews-truly-believe-in-the-mosaic-law/595027.md?page=4)