# Do libertarians have classicidal ideations? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 14, 2015, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-libertarians-have-classicidal-ideations/720075 "2015-05-14T23:51:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2015, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-libertarians-have-classicidal-ideations/720075/101 "2015-05-16T01:17:30Z")
> [@protoboard](#): > > I didn’t give cites because the request for them is unreasonable and borders upon being fallacious and a variant of the Ad Hominem fallacy. So you say that caring about whether a statement is supported by facts is “unreasonable and borders upon being fallacious and a variant of the Ad Hominem fallacy”. I’ll file that away under ‘interesting things that liberals have posted on the internet’. Let me give you a hint. Everything that you’ve posted about libertarians in this thread is untrue and everyone in this thread knows that. Asking for cites when someone says something idiotic is not unreasonable, but is practically the definition of reason. The real reason why you haven’t provided cites is that no libertarian has ever said the things that you claim we say. If any libertarian had said what you claim they said, you would be able to provide a cite. Nobody is stupid enough to believe the things you’re saying. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2015, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-libertarians-have-classicidal-ideations/720075/102 "2015-05-16T03:13:36Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > Okay, so we agree that a charity and a non-profit organization are synonymous. Churches are non-profit organizations, and are officially classified that way. Therefore, according to the definition that you posted, churches are charities. Thank you for proving yourself wrong and me right. > > Both help fulfill the need for pleasant, uplifting, or positive aesthetic experiences. Grammar nitpick: “Synonym” _ **does not mean,** _ “identical denotation.” It means _ **overlapping** _ denotations. In any case, the kind of charities (def1) Robert refers to, and the ones relevant to an argument about the lot of the poor in a libertarian régime, are a _subset_ of the kind of charities (def2) that the IRS recognizes. That means they are _not the same set._ And if you think being able to see a stained-glass window at the local Catholic church makes up for not having the wherewithal to stop your own roof falling in, you have lost this argument as fully as one can lose it. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2015, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-libertarians-have-classicidal-ideations/720075/103 "2015-05-16T03:25:41Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > Well, **protoboard** started this thread by saying that libertarians want to kill poor people. When asked to justify his claim, he didn’t even try to do so. No one else has provided any evidence that libertarianism has ever harmed anyone either, or that libertarians have any desire to hurt the poor. If anyone wants to make that case, perhaps they should provide evidence that libertarians don’t like the poor. I used to be a Malthusian conservative and feel it morally laudable to kill, not just some poor people, but much of the lumpenproletariat _en masse._ I voted like a Reagan Republican, but developed misgivings about their anti-environmentalism. In the end, Ra’s al Ghul and Ronald Reagan are too different. Now, I don’t think “libertarians” typically agreed with me. Those guys seemed to think they should be able to do whatever they wanted, damn the consequences. And that’s obviously an invitation to great destruction. But again, those guys were drinking the same water I was, growing up in Reagan’s America, and we had a lot in common. And in that period, I sometimes called myself an anarcho-capitalist, or someone with libertarian influences, because I did have those influences. I don’t find it surprising that \*\*protoboard \*\*has met self-described libertarians who think that way, because I’ve met lots of them, and I’ve probably called myself one and said those things. In the end, I chose order over chaos, but I’ve had anarchist relapses. Another thing: If even Ra’s al Ghul, who’s already given up on humanity and become a supervillain, thinks you’re a dangerously lawless prat, might you actually be a dangerously lawless prat? ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2015, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-libertarians-have-classicidal-ideations/720075/104 "2015-05-16T03:30:41Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > I thought Libertarians were against taxes, beyond things like the police, military, courts, etc. Food Stamps and the Pell grant are paid with taxes, right? Presumably they want to borrow money from billionaires to fund all that stuff, until the state goes bankrupt and has to sell off assets to those same billionaires (or different billionaires, it’s all good). This will get assets out of the hands of the Interior Dept and the EPA and into the hands of private citizens, who can control and monetize them more fully. At least, that’s how “Starve the Beast” is \*supposed \*to work. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2015, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-libertarians-have-classicidal-ideations/720075/105 "2015-05-16T03:44:16Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > “You didn’t build that” is, at its core, a socialist conception of the economy. Only inasmuch as it assumes the existence of a _society_, the entirety of which contributes to the health and success of that society and its economy. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2015, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-libertarians-have-classicidal-ideations/720075/106 "2015-05-16T03:57:59Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > After the recent violence in Baltimore, many pundits noted that 50 years of liberal government, high taxes, high regulation, welfare spending, and aggressive policing don’t seem to have cured poverty in that city. Indeed, wherever we have a super-strong government determined to help people by controlling them, poverty seems to be high. North Dakota and Maryland did not start from identical initial conditions. You don’t have a probative natural experiment. > [@Human\_Action](#): > > Not the case, the problem with countries like Uganda isn’t lack of regulation, but rather [corruption](http://www.transparency.org/cpi2012/results/). Regulations mean nothing if economic opportunity hinges on political connections and bribery (see also: the United States, at times). > [snip] > Other points have been raised, such as increased economic opportunity, or a guaranteed basic income. So, you repudiate the corruption of the GOP, and support both equality of opportunity and a Basic Income Guarantee? You’re very, very different from the Ron Paul minarchists and anti-tax Reaganites who commonly call themselves libertarians. > [@Human\_Action](#): > > In some cases, sure. The balanced-budget, surplus-in-good-times-deficit-in-bad-times, fiscal conservatives still exist, though (me, for one), so ceding the term entirely to the radicals isn’t a concession I’m prepared to make. Similarly, I self-describe as moderate libertarian. I also advocate for a basic income (via a negative income tax) and universal health care. To me, those are libertarian values. Other libertarians disagree, but I’m not ceding the term to them. Sounds like you’re a Friedmanesque libertarian/Social Liberal. That’s not the same thing as a childish belief that authority is bad, or that prisons are only for other people, or what have you. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2015, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-libertarians-have-classicidal-ideations/720075/107 "2015-05-16T04:03:43Z")
> [@grude](#): > > I was just assuming a belief in property rights are pretty universal. :smack:And I’ guessing marshmallow was referring to taxation when bringing up property rights in relation to libertarians. Oh, I thought it was probably the right to kill trespassers summarily. Because breaking and entering is worse than murder, or something. > [@ITR\_champion](#): > > The best thing for poor people who want to buy food would be lower food prices. (I hope that folks of all political stripes can agree with that much.) Right now, the government works to raise food prices, thus making it harder for poor people to eat well. For example, there’s the [Raisin Administrative Committee](http://www.wsj.com/articles/the-incredible-raisin-heist-1429570964), whose job is “control prices” of raisins. (This is a euphemism for raising prices.) Each year they take thousands of tons of raisins from farmers by force, thereby limiting supply and raising the price of raisins. Similar bodies exist to raise the prices of almonds, apricots, avocados, cherries, cranberries, dates, grapes, hazelnuts, kiwifruit, olives, onions, pears, pistachios, plums, prunes, tomatoes, walnuts, &c… The government also puts [protective tariffs](http://www.businessinsider.com/americas-biggest-tariffs-2010-9#non-specific-dairy-products-20-tariff-on-imports-1) on a number of crops: 30% on cantaloupes, 21% on asparagus, 131% on shelled peanuts, 168% on unshelled peanuts, and so forth. > > So a libertarian might ask, if we want to help the poor eat, why not eliminate all government actions designed to raise the prices of food? This would benefit the poor and everyone else who buys food. Dude, we’ve had a “cheap food” policy for decades. What happens to dirt farmers when food prices bottom out? They go out of business and move into slums, same as happens to every other poor schlemazel. We should be raising incomes, not destroying the incomes of small agriculturalists. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Joker\_and\_the\_Thief](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e79b87/32.png) [@The\_Joker\_and\_the\_Thief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Joker_and_the_Thief)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2015, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-libertarians-have-classicidal-ideations/720075/108 "2015-05-16T04:10:29Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > Presumably they want to borrow money from billionaires to fund all that stuff, until the state goes bankrupt and has to sell off assets to those same billionaires (or different billionaires, it’s all good). This will get assets out of the hands of the Interior Dept and the EPA and into the hands of private citizens, who can control and monetize them more fully. > > At least, that’s how “Starve the Beast” is \*supposed \*to work. I can’t tell if this is a failed attempt at sarcasm or a grossly uninformed but earnest belief. I mean, what’s the point of this? I don’t really know why someone would post such pointless and incorrect drivel, but then I can’t imagine that an established poster could actually be so grossly wrong on a well-known topic. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2015, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-libertarians-have-classicidal-ideations/720075/109 "2015-05-16T04:15:52Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > Ok, thanks for your response. What about the Pell grant? Government housing? Minimum wage? Like many others, I think the government’s financial assistance to college students simply leads to colleges and universities raising their prices. As more and more financial aid has been offered, costs have gone through the roof, and they show no sign of slowing down. As long as the government provides huge grants and loans, the universities have no motivation to contain costs. Government housing? Government funded housing projects are notorious for being crime- and drug-infested &@#$holes. They ruined the lives of millions of poor people. Recently the government has shifted to providing vouchers that let the poor rent homes built by businesses. This looks like a de facto admission that private enterprise does better than government. I support the vouchers for those truly in need. Still, when I read things like [this](http://cityhallblog.dallasnews.com/2014/04/ex-caseworker-in-city-housing-program-pleads-guilty-to-lying-to-feds-trading-apartment-for-sex.html/): According to court documents, Hart has pleaded guilty to lying to officials from the U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development, living in Project Reconnect housing intended for program participants, hindering a federal investigation and even trading housing for sex, among other things. It seems like we could cut some money from the HUD budget without throwing any needy people out on the street. As for minimum wage, I can think of few more effective ways to harm the poor than passing [a law that takes away many of their jobs](http://news.uci.edu/press-releases/minimum-wage-increases-result-in-job-loss-uci-led-study-reaffirms/) and forces [small businesses](http://www.nationalreview.com/article/417763/when-minimum-wage-hikes-hit-san-francisco-comic-book-store-ian-tuttle) to shut down. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2015, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-libertarians-have-classicidal-ideations/720075/110 "2015-05-16T04:19:45Z")
I was in the conservative movement and Republican Party for a long time. What I describe is their actual policy and has been for twenty years or more. Your “incredulous” denials mean nothing. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2015, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-libertarians-have-classicidal-ideations/720075/111 "2015-05-16T04:22:05Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > Dude, we’ve had a “cheap food” policy for decades. What happens to dirt farmers when food prices bottom out? > > They go out of business and move into slums, same as happens to every other poor schlemazel. Already happened. Farming is big business. I dabble in it. The few small farms that are left are mostly run by boomers. Their kids are off doing other stuff. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2015, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-libertarians-have-classicidal-ideations/720075/112 "2015-05-16T04:28:00Z")
**ITR Champion** , do you support a Basic Income Guarantee? Would you support higher taxes on households making over $100,000/year to fund it? Would you support it even knowing that food prices and the prices of services previously unavailable to the grindingly poor would rise due to increased demand, and households in the 90th income percentile, making close to the mean income, would get the short end of the stick? Because, me, I do believe in it, even though it would sting the “middle class” at the 90th percentile pretty hard. Or are you just going to wave your hands and pretend their are “other ways” that you won’t explain? Are you looking for “other ways” that don’t require either you or the likes of Sheldon Adelson to give up a damn thing? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Joker\_and\_the\_Thief](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e79b87/32.png) [@The\_Joker\_and\_the\_Thief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Joker_and_the_Thief)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2015, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-libertarians-have-classicidal-ideations/720075/113 "2015-05-16T04:32:04Z")
Given that your comment shows an utter lack of understanding of both the methods the government uses to create debt and how sovereign bankruptcy works, I’m inclined to disbelieve your absurd claim. Here’s some help: almost all government debt is sold directly to banks, not private individuals, and when a sovereign state defaults creditors are told to pound sand, instead of receiving federal assets. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2015, 8:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-libertarians-have-classicidal-ideations/720075/114 "2015-05-16T08:05:09Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > So you’re saying I used a cliche of both extremes to prove a point? …By the way, you do a lot of convenient redefining of mainstream political thought. The robber-baron age is seen as a highly libertarian, or laissez-faire, period of our history. “You didn’t build that” is, at its core, a socialist conception of the economy. Your point is fair. I tried to present a contrast to your viewpoint. In a forum like this, one resorts to terse exaggerations rather than essays with more nuance. I hope you would agree that your insistence that Obama’s out-of-context quote shows a “socialist conception” is also misleading. It was the public that won World Wars, flew to the Moon, built superhighways, etc. It was public financing – land grants – that built the American railroads. And it was the public, as risk-taker of last resort, that saved Wall Street from the biggest self-inflicted disaster of our lifetimes. The libertarian insistence that “the goverment didn’t do that – it was Joe Schmoe the day trader” is not merely wrong-headed, but offensive. I don’t deny the contributions of great entrepreneurs like James Watt, John D. Rockefeller, even Bill Gates and Steve Jobs. History is rife with periods of great technological or socioeconomic change in which entrepreneurs get very rich and gradually the benefits trickle down to the masses. Rockefeller and Carnegie made America a more prosperous country, just as the shipbuilders did for Holland centuries earlier. But at their core, today’s misguided Libertarians rely on the syllogism: [ul][li] Rockefeller got rich and benefited the U.S.A.[/li][li] Ivan Boesky and Dick Fuld got rich[/li][li] Therefore Boesky and Fuld benefitted the U.S.A.[/li][/ul] (Yes, this is an oversimplification of libertarian views, but with your insistence on “socialist conception” above, it’s more than you deserve.) Meanwhile, others in the thread seem to think the hundreds of billions needed for America’s underclass would appear out of nowhere if we just abolished assistance to farms, or encouraged more tithing. Some viewpoints are too laughable to debate. > [@The\_Joker\_and\_the\_Thief](#): > > Here’s some help: almost all government debt is sold directly to banks, not private individuals, and when a sovereign state defaults creditors are told to pound sand, instead of receiving federal assets. This is at best extremely misleading but, if it implies antipathy for the banks, allows a segue: There is one topic where the centrist rational thinkers and the hyperlibertarians seem to have common ground: Wall Street has too much influence over government policy. Obviously neither the rationalists nor the hyperlibertarians are running the country. … But unfortunately, when the libertarian casts a ballot for Ayn Rand, author of fairytales, the ballot is actually going straight into the hands of Charles and David Koch. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2015, 10:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-libertarians-have-classicidal-ideations/720075/115 "2015-05-16T10:11:57Z")
> [@The\_Joker\_and\_the\_Thief](#): > > Given that your comment shows an utter lack of understanding of both the methods the government uses to create debt and how sovereign bankruptcy works, I’m inclined to disbelieve your absurd claim. > > Here’s some help: almost all government debt is sold directly to banks, not private individuals, and when a sovereign state defaults creditors are told to pound sand, instead of receiving federal assets. And you expect elected Congressmen and Senators to know anything about, “both the methods the government uses to create debt and how sovereign bankruptcy works”? I’m just telling you what the party is trying to do. It’s not really a surprise that it won’t work _quite_ as planned under any law yet written. But hey, they know how to beg for money from billionaires, and buy ads from television, and they can probably find someone who does know about law to write a new law they can vote into existence that’ll let them sell off all the federal lands, when they think they’ve gotten to that point. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2015, 11:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-libertarians-have-classicidal-ideations/720075/116 "2015-05-16T11:29:14Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > Or are you just going to wave your hands and pretend their are “other ways” that you won’t explain? Are you looking for “other ways” that don’t require either you or the likes of Sheldon Adelson to give up a damn thing? I think most of the country is going to say there are “other ways” than fringe ideas like basic income. Why are **ITR** ’s views on it particularly interesting to you? ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2015, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-libertarians-have-classicidal-ideations/720075/117 "2015-05-16T12:10:50Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > It was the public that won World Wars, flew to the Moon, built superhighways, etc. It was public financing – land grants – that built the American railroads. And it was the public, as risk-taker of last resort, that saved Wall Street from the biggest self-inflicted disaster of our lifetimes. I’m putting words in their mouths, but I suspect libs would say we shouldn’t fight non-defensive wars. And that the private sector could have handled the moon, superhighways, and railroads more efficiently. That wall street should have been left to die. The moon/roads/rails thing is likely true. Markets and private capital get things done cheaper. But you and I both know that there are sometimes reasons why we sacrifice that efficiency. > [@septimus](#): > > The libertarian insistence that “the goverment didn’t do that – it was Joe Schmoe the day trader” is not merely wrong-headed, but offensive. Maybe I’m not the only one putting words in their mouths. > [@septimus](#): > > Meanwhile, others in the thread seem to think the hundreds of billions needed for America’s underclass would appear out of nowhere if we just abolished assistance to farms[. . . .] Some viewpoints are too laughable to debate. Who said that in this thread? Do you even know where most farm assistance goes? To people like me. Need investment opportunities? Care to join me in sucking the government teat? I can teach you the ways of Big Ag. Not that I’ve gotten rich off it; I’m still learning. “America’s underclass” are food consumers, not farmers. But we’ve reduced their price of food to its lowest ever. Although less so where big money has bought big government interference. ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2015, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-libertarians-have-classicidal-ideations/720075/118 "2015-05-16T12:48:50Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Yes, property rights often derive from civilization (i.e., organization) which in turn depends, almost by definition, on government. It’s the libertarian notion that government and property rights oppose each other which makes rational thinkers laugh. _ **Property rights depend on government.** _ > > But, it might be informative if you’d expand on your notion of the rotection that property rights offer to a homeless man. It’s the bolded part that libertarians don’t seem to understand. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2015, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-libertarians-have-classicidal-ideations/720075/119 "2015-05-16T19:36:19Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > I’m putting words in their mouths, but I suspect libs would say we shouldn’t fight non-defensive wars. And that the private sector could have handled the moon, superhighways, and railroads more efficiently. That wall street should have been left to die. . . . The superhighways, at least, could never conceivably have been built entirely under a system that respects private property absolutely. Just one farmer has to refuse to sell his land, and the freeway is halted. Without the government’s ability to seize land, very large-scale construction projects would be absolutely impossible. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2015, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-libertarians-have-classicidal-ideations/720075/120 "2015-05-16T19:41:08Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > The superhighways, at least, could never conceivably have been built entirely under a system that respects private property absolutely. > > Just one farmer has to refuse to sell his land, and the freeway is halted. Without the government’s ability to seize land, very large-scale construction projects would be absolutely impossible. And that is probably a good argument to bring to anyone who dreams of the private superhighways of Libertopia. I think roads are a pretty good example of why we sometimes decide to do without the efficiencies of market solutions. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-libertarians-have-classicidal-ideations/720075.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-libertarians-have-classicidal-ideations/720075.md?page=7)