# Do libertarians realize private citizens are just as oppressive as the government? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 4, 2019, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-libertarians-realize-private-citizens-are-just-as-oppressive-as-the-government/835021 "2019-06-04T16:27:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2019, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-libertarians-realize-private-citizens-are-just-as-oppressive-as-the-government/835021/21 "2019-06-04T19:21:15Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Oh you misread. I said it was ended peacefully. It was. Especially compared to the carnage you think was necessary for some deeply ideological or psychological reason. Ended peacefully because of slavers resisted giving up slaves they would have faced the armed might of the government - exactly the stuff you rail about. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2019, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-libertarians-realize-private-citizens-are-just-as-oppressive-as-the-government/835021/22 "2019-06-04T19:23:09Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > If libertarians had their way and government regulation was abolished, that opportunity for individuals to oppress would increase greatly. If authoritarians had their way, they would confiscate 18% of society’s loot and build prisons and war machines. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2019, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-libertarians-realize-private-citizens-are-just-as-oppressive-as-the-government/835021/23 "2019-06-04T19:24:12Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Ended peacefully because of slavers resisted giving up slaves they would have faced the armed might of the government - exactly the stuff you rail about. That happened literally nowhere, but cool story. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2019, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-libertarians-realize-private-citizens-are-just-as-oppressive-as-the-government/835021/24 "2019-06-04T19:24:59Z")
> [@BrotherCadfael](#): > > Assuming you don’t work for Microsoft and don’t use their products, Bill Gates has almost no power over you. Compare this to power potentially exercised by the lowest GS-5 employee of the IRS if they choose to do so. > Individuals can certainly oppress - but they have less opportunity to do so. You really think that any IRS employee can launch a vendetta against someone without fear of firing or worse? Hell, if that were true we’d have Trump’s tax returns by now. Individuals are limited in their oppression by the very government you hate. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2019, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-libertarians-realize-private-citizens-are-just-as-oppressive-as-the-government/835021/25 "2019-06-04T19:25:49Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > If authoritarians had their way, they would confiscate 18% of society’s loot and build prisons and war machines. That’s a peculiarly precise figure-where did you get it from? ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2019, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-libertarians-realize-private-citizens-are-just-as-oppressive-as-the-government/835021/26 "2019-06-04T19:26:28Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > That happened literally nowhere, but cool story. It didn’t happen because the slavers knew the consequences. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2019, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-libertarians-realize-private-citizens-are-just-as-oppressive-as-the-government/835021/27 "2019-06-04T19:26:34Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Of course Libertarians know that oppression by individuals is about the same as oppression by individuals…but they assume/hope that in a Libertarian society they have a decent chance of being the individuals that oppress. If they wanted to oppress they’d become a statist. Much easier than wage an educational campaign to turn people into Libertarians. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2019, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-libertarians-realize-private-citizens-are-just-as-oppressive-as-the-government/835021/28 "2019-06-04T19:27:40Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > It didn’t happen because the slavers knew the consequences. Yes I’m waiting on your graphic novel for the details of this tale. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2019, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-libertarians-realize-private-citizens-are-just-as-oppressive-as-the-government/835021/29 "2019-06-04T19:28:40Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > That happened literally nowhere, but cool story. Really? So, when England banned slavery in 1833, why do you think none of the English people who owned slaves at the time said, “Fuck that, I’m keeping mine?” ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2019, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-libertarians-realize-private-citizens-are-just-as-oppressive-as-the-government/835021/30 "2019-06-04T19:29:25Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Yes a lot of fact-free tech-geek pablum. The same type of nonsense was believed when they took down Standard Oil years after it reached its peak. I think it had like a 6% market share. IOW, I understood nothing of what you said. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2019, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-libertarians-realize-private-citizens-are-just-as-oppressive-as-the-government/835021/31 "2019-06-04T19:29:31Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Yes I’m waiting on your graphic novel for the details of this tale. History books too complicated for you? ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2019, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-libertarians-realize-private-citizens-are-just-as-oppressive-as-the-government/835021/32 "2019-06-04T19:31:21Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Yes I’m waiting on your graphic novel for the details of this tale. So, no person drives the speed limit for fear of the cops, no person doesn’t commit a crime because they suspect armed police will catch them, no business operates ethically because the legal penalty for not doing so is too high? You truly live in Lib-Lib Land. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2019, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-libertarians-realize-private-citizens-are-just-as-oppressive-as-the-government/835021/33 "2019-06-04T19:35:46Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > You really think that any IRS employee can launch a vendetta against someone without fear of firing or worse? > Hell, if that were true we’d have Trump’s tax returns by now. > Individuals are limited in their oppression by the very government you hate. No. People form political parties to oppress. Republicans form to oppress immigrants and drug users. Democrats form to oppress productive individuals and drug sellers. > [@Czarcasm](#): > > That’s a peculiarly precise figure-where did you get it from? Taxes have beboped around that figure since WWII. > **[Hauser's law](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hauser%27s_law)** > > Hauser's law is the empirical observation that, in the United States, federal tax revenues since World War II have always been approximately equal to 19.5% of GDP, regardless of wide fluctuations in the marginal tax rate. Historically, since the end of World War II, federal tax receipts as a percentage of gross domestic product averaged 17.9%, with a range from 14.4% to 20.9% between 1946 and 2007. > The proposition was first put forward in 1993 by William Kurt Hauser, a San Francisco investment... Though his law says 19.5%. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2019, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-libertarians-realize-private-citizens-are-just-as-oppressive-as-the-government/835021/34 "2019-06-04T19:36:46Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > So, no person drives the speed limit for fear of the cops, no person doesn’t commit a crime because they suspect armed police will catch them, no business operates ethically because the legal penalty for not doing so is too high? > > You truly live in Lib-Lib Land. Your claim was that the slaver’s gave up slavery under threat from govt arms. What are you going on about now? ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2019, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-libertarians-realize-private-citizens-are-just-as-oppressive-as-the-government/835021/35 "2019-06-04T19:38:01Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > IOW, I understood nothing of what you said. I’ve heard the same tech-geek nonsense from all-knowing neckbeards for years. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2019, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-libertarians-realize-private-citizens-are-just-as-oppressive-as-the-government/835021/36 "2019-06-04T19:39:02Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Really? So, when England banned slavery in 1833, why do you think none of the English people who owned slaves at the time said, “Fuck that, I’m keeping mine?” Make your claim. That’s how this works. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2019, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-libertarians-realize-private-citizens-are-just-as-oppressive-as-the-government/835021/37 "2019-06-04T19:41:55Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > No. People form political parties to oppress. Republicans form to oppress immigrants and drug users. Democrats form to oppress productive individuals and drug sellers. > > Taxes have beboped around that figure since WWII. > > [Hauser's law - Wikipedia](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hauser%27s_law) > > Though his law says 19.5%. And how much of that is used to build prisons and “war machines”? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2019, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-libertarians-realize-private-citizens-are-just-as-oppressive-as-the-government/835021/38 "2019-06-04T19:45:03Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > I’ve heard the same tech-geek nonsense from all-knowing neckbeards for years. “tech-geek nonsense” “all-knowing neckbeards” With debating like this, it’s no wonder the Libertarian Movement is growing by the millions every year. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![neutro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/bc8723/32.png) [@neutro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/neutro)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2019, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-libertarians-realize-private-citizens-are-just-as-oppressive-as-the-government/835021/39 "2019-06-04T19:48:13Z")
There is an awful lot of room between what we have and some kind of ideal pipedream libertarian society. The gulf between reality and almost any -ism is rather large. Realistically I think government has gotten too large, that doesn’t mean it has to be completely torn down to nothing. It’s like trimming the bushes in your hard, they will get out of hand if you don’t trim them back every once in a while. We haven’t had a trimming in a long time 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2019, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-libertarians-realize-private-citizens-are-just-as-oppressive-as-the-government/835021/40 "2019-06-04T19:55:52Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > How about we start with the basics. Don’t steal. Don’t deny other’s freedom. Yes, let’s start with the basics. Who, exactly, is going to make this happen? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-libertarians-realize-private-citizens-are-just-as-oppressive-as-the-government/835021.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-libertarians-realize-private-citizens-are-just-as-oppressive-as-the-government/835021.md?page=3)