# Do libertarians realize private citizens are just as oppressive as the government? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 4, 2019, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-libertarians-realize-private-citizens-are-just-as-oppressive-as-the-government/835021 "2019-06-04T16:27:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2019, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-libertarians-realize-private-citizens-are-just-as-oppressive-as-the-government/835021/81 "2019-06-05T00:59:13Z")
> [@l0k1](#): > > The US took up arms against secessionists, not slave holders. It didn’t matter if the secessionsts enslaved people or not. So it is your position the US did not take up arms against the slaveholders? Interesting theory. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2019, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-libertarians-realize-private-citizens-are-just-as-oppressive-as-the-government/835021/82 "2019-06-05T01:03:43Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Now that last line only points to weapon’s grade ignorance of history. And this example is not just the USA BTW. > > [BBC - History - British History in depth: The Royal Navy and the Battle to End Slavery](https://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/abolition/royal_navy_article_01.shtml) > Of course, British motives were not entirely altruistic. However, it shows that **Voyager** was correct, slavers that resisted giving up slaves did face the armed might of the government and after that was known, others knew why it was better to give up peacefully. Interesting tidbit about a police action or two. The implied comparison of course is absurd. ---
**Author:** ![l0k1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/bb73d2/32.png) [@l0k1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/l0k1)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2019, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-libertarians-realize-private-citizens-are-just-as-oppressive-as-the-government/835021/83 "2019-06-05T01:21:10Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > So it is your position the US did not take up arms against the slaveholders? Interesting theory. Not the slave holders in Maryland, or West Virginia, or even DC itself. DC’s enslaved population was freed by an act of Congress and their former owners were compensated. The Emancipation Proclamation specifically exludes all areas under not in rebellion from emancipation, down to the county and parish level. Slavery was legal in the United States until the Constitution was amended after the rebellion ended. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2019, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-libertarians-realize-private-citizens-are-just-as-oppressive-as-the-government/835021/84 "2019-06-05T01:42:10Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > How about we start with the basics. Don’t steal. Don’t deny other’s freedom. > > Theft by tax vastly outweighs private theft. > > Imprisonment by government vastly outweighs private imprisonments. Of course, the invisible hand of the free market will take care of all the business cheaters, right. Except, of course, for the ones who set up the same scam in a new town.:dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2019, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-libertarians-realize-private-citizens-are-just-as-oppressive-as-the-government/835021/85 "2019-06-05T02:05:36Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Yes. Statists gonna state. Where have I said the Confederacy was a libertarian paradise? The idea is laughable. I’m glad to hear you say that. It’s funny when people who pretend to like liberty get so _concerned_ about the Union’s activities in suppressing criminals while pretending that the criminals were freedom-loving patriots. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2019, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-libertarians-realize-private-citizens-are-just-as-oppressive-as-the-government/835021/86 "2019-06-05T02:11:29Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Interesting tidbit about a police action or two. The implied comparison of course is absurd. Well, not my problem if more ignorance is used by you as an argument. [http://www.pdavis.nl/Background.htm#WAS](http://www.pdavis.nl/Background.htm#WAS) > [@](#): > > Annual reports concerning the Mixed Courts at Sierra Leone from the British Commissioners (1839, 1840, 1841, 1842, 1843, 1844, 1845, 1846, 1847, 1848) > Denman’s destruction of the barracoons at the Gallinas River in November 1840 > Jones’ destruction of the barracoons at Dombocorro and elsewhere in February 1845: > > ``` > the Lieut.-Governor of Sierra Leone's request to Commodore Jones > Commodore Jones' reports to the Lieut.-Governor > Commodore Jones' report of a subsequent conference with the Chiefs > > ``` > > A list of some 280 vessels seized or destroyed by ships of the West African Squadron in the period 1838-1845, with details of name and type of ship, date seized, location seized, seizing vessel and commander, number of slaves onboard, court where tried, and verdict > A list of 17 vessels seized or destroyed by ships of the West African Squadron in which William Loney was serving > Court reports concerning the vessels seized by navy cruisers when William Loney was on board: > > ``` > Eliza Davidson seized by Wanderer, 4 April 1840 (2 slaves on board); Advocate Generals opinion > São Paolo de Loando seized by Wanderer, 3 June 1840 > Maria Rosaria seized by Wanderer, 9 June 1840 > Republicano seized by Wanderer, 14 August 1840 (case withdrawn; condemned earlier after being seized by Fantôme) > Firmé seized by Dolphin, 30 May 1841 (armed resistance offered) > Nova Fortuna seized by Dolphin, 6 June 1841 (contested case) > Josefa seized by Amphitrite, 8 september 1848 (taken to Vice-Admiralty court) > > ``` > > “Reports of Proceedings” from Commodore W. Jones, Officer commanding the West African squadron (5th April 1845, 23rd April 1845, 12th June 1845) With plenty of links in the cite. One of them is about the 1846 incidents in Sierra Leone and **years** of anti-slave operations before: [http://www.pdavis.nl/SL1846.htm](http://www.pdavis.nl/SL1846.htm) > [@](#): > > My Lord, > > HEREWITH we have the honour to transmit to your Lordship our annual report of the proceedings of the Courts of Mixed Commission established in this place for the suppression of the Slave Trade; also on the general state of the Slave Trade on the west coast of Africa, during the year ending the 31st of December, 1846. > > In the year just concluded, no case came before the British and Netherland, British and Spanish, British and Argentine, British and Chilian, British and Bolivian, nor the British and Uruguayan Mixed Courts of Justice. > > The total number of vessels presented before these Mixed Commission Courts since their establishment in this colony in June 1819, up to the 31st of December, 1846, is 528, whereof 501 were cases of condemnation and twenty-seven were either withdrawn, dismissed, or restored to the claimant. > > During the same period there have been emancipated. by the Courts 64,625 slaves, of whom 56,935 have been registered here (During the year 1846, 545 slaves, the survivors of 556 captured, were emancipated by the Court of Vice-Admiralty at Sierra Leone). ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2019, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-libertarians-realize-private-citizens-are-just-as-oppressive-as-the-government/835021/87 "2019-06-05T02:15:45Z")
**OP: Do libertarians realize private citizens are just as oppressive as the government?** As evidenced by this thread, the answer is that clearly they do not. ---
**Author:** ![Mcmechanic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@Mcmechanic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mcmechanic)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2019, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-libertarians-realize-private-citizens-are-just-as-oppressive-as-the-government/835021/88 "2019-06-05T02:28:23Z")
Do Libertarian ideas only begin at the civil war? What about before? The Declaration of Independence? How would things of been different? ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2019, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-libertarians-realize-private-citizens-are-just-as-oppressive-as-the-government/835021/89 "2019-06-05T05:22:24Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > So it is your position the US did not take up arms against the slaveholders? Interesting theory. The position is that the causes of a war don’t have to be symmetrical, which is a completely unsupportable premise pro-Confederates try to smuggle in implicitly. That is, if one side goes to war for premise A, the other side does _not_ necessarily go to war for the equal and opposite premise NOT A. Each side’s reasoning must be examined, and conclusions must be drawn, separately and with a commitment to intellectual honesty. So the South went to war to preserve slavery in the face of Lincoln, a member of a party opposed to the expansion of slavery, winning the election, with South Carolina attempting to secede in December of 1860. The North went to war after would-be secessionists fired on an American fort. The Cornerstone Speech and the various states’ Articles of Secession are clear on the South’s reasoning, and the North’s reasoning is blatantly obvious after the attack on Fort Sumter. So, no, we won’t have anyone trying to equivocate or smuggle unsupportable premises here. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2019, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-libertarians-realize-private-citizens-are-just-as-oppressive-as-the-government/835021/90 "2019-06-05T05:51:11Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Interesting tidbit about a police action or two. The implied comparison of course is absurd. The IRS, as far as I can tell, is totally peaceful. Therefore you must have no objection to them, right? As for slaveholders, here is Farnaby’s model of the Civil War. Yank pointing gun at Rebel: You own slaves, brother? Reb 1: No, I can’t afford them. Yank: You can go. (To Reb 2) You own slaves? Reb 2: Yes, I own 3 and they want to be slaves. Yank: Boom. Your posts are very funny. And very stupid. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2019, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-libertarians-realize-private-citizens-are-just-as-oppressive-as-the-government/835021/91 "2019-06-05T05:55:20Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > So it is your position the US did not take up arms against the slaveholders? Interesting theory. Kentucky, a slaveholding state, did not secede and arms were not taken up against them. So arms were taken up against se3cessionist traitors, many of whom happened to be slave owners. ---
**Author:** ![not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_what_you_d_expect/32/3246_2.png) [@not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_what_you_d_expect)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2019, 10:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-libertarians-realize-private-citizens-are-just-as-oppressive-as-the-government/835021/92 "2019-06-05T10:30:06Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Ok we can get more basic. Do you reject self-ownership, or should I prove self-ownership before proceeding with the rest? > > Libertarian do believe it applies to those thieves and heirs to thieves. We simply believe that these claims should be proven on an individual basis. Collectively calling Euro-Americans thieves and forcing reparations to Native Americans would be incorrect. The proper course would be for a Native American to dispute specific property ownership of a Euro-American (or African-American etc.). Can you please clarify this? Who will these folks take the dispute to? ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2019, 10:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-libertarians-realize-private-citizens-are-just-as-oppressive-as-the-government/835021/93 "2019-06-05T10:34:26Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Yes a lot of fact-free tech-geek pablum. The same type of nonsense was believed when they took down Standard Oil years after it reached its peak. I think it had like a 6% market share. I understand that libertarians like to point out that Standard Oil’s market share was decreasing at the time that it was broken up. But yeah…not 6%. Multiply that by 10 at least. At its peak it was in the 90s. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2019, 10:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-libertarians-realize-private-citizens-are-just-as-oppressive-as-the-government/835021/94 "2019-06-05T10:44:08Z")
> [@not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](#): > > Can you please clarify this? Who will these folks take the dispute to? The marketplace. Marketplace knows all, judges all. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2019, 11:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-libertarians-realize-private-citizens-are-just-as-oppressive-as-the-government/835021/95 "2019-06-05T11:05:47Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Slavery ended in Britain after it became politically untenable thanks to free markets. There was also a change in attitudes among the masses. But surely some British were still slaveowners after it became politically untenable and hadn’t changed their attitudes at the time the law was passed. But there were… peacefully coerced? ---
**Author:** ![l0k1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/bb73d2/32.png) [@l0k1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/l0k1)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2019, 11:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-libertarians-realize-private-citizens-are-just-as-oppressive-as-the-government/835021/96 "2019-06-05T11:26:06Z")
To address the continued contention that enslavement ended in the British Empire in 1834: “British Emancipation Act of 1834 was equally half-hearted. It ended slavery only in the Caribbean, not the rest of the British Empire. Slavery only became illegal in India in 1848, on the Gold Coast in 1874, and in Nigeria in 1901. In the late nineteenth century, colonial soldiers and police in Africa were often slaves themselves. Even after it was officially prohibited, slavery continued under other names as indentured service or forced labor. As late as 1948, colonial officials privately acknowledged that domestic slavery existed in northern Ghana.” > **[After Abolition: Britain and the Slave Trade Since 1807 | Origins](https://origins.osu.edu/review/after-abolition-britain-and-slave-trade-1807)** > > 2007 marked the bicentennial of an extraordinary event. In that year, the British Parliament outlawed the slave trade. While the anniversary passed without too much comment in the United States, it was commemorated widely in Britain. Out of that... ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2019, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-libertarians-realize-private-citizens-are-just-as-oppressive-as-the-government/835021/97 "2019-06-05T11:59:09Z")
Nobody is being forced to do business with companies like Microsoft or Amazon, or any other business. They only have power over you to the extent of the power you give them. You are always free to find an alternative. But there are consequences to not dealing with the IRS. And it should go without saying that slavery is incompatible with libertarianism. In fact, it’s the opposite. ---
**Author:** ![fedman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/278dde/32.png) [@fedman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fedman)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2019, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-libertarians-realize-private-citizens-are-just-as-oppressive-as-the-government/835021/98 "2019-06-05T12:57:38Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Libertarians vary by degree. Some are moderates, albeit firm supporters of Reagan’s “Starve the Beast” approach of building up debt so that Ds, when back in control, cannot afford major investments. But some libertarians are quite extreme: perhaps even akin to the shrieking SovCit driving her RV without a license we saw on YouTube recently. > > By now, plain “conservatives” are rather right-wing. Anyone still adhering to a “libertarian” label — unless it’s just because they like to smoke dope — are surely pretty radical. > > Let’s first ask > (1) **Was it proper and intelligent to coerce the population into smallpox vaccines?** _(Some Libs answer: Coercion is despicable. Liberty encompasses the Liberty to not have a jackbooted statist stick needles into my child. Sure, the bug might have been eradicated. So what?)_ > > (2) **Is it right and proper for a country dependent on a large rice-growing basin to tax citizens** (perhaps at gunpoint) **and build a system of dams and reservoirs for flood control?** _(Some Libs answer: There are so many alternatives preferable to seizing private wealth for Stalin-style central planning. Villagers could build levees on their own land when adjacent to the River. Chicago BOE will trade rainfall futures that can be used to hedge against floods. Why haven’t these squatting farmers moved to the hills, anyway?))_ > > (3) **Which came first historically, property rights or coercive governance?** _(One Libertarian chose Medieval Ireland as his best example of ideal governance. I mentioned that payment of a tithe to the church was almost mandatory. “I wouldn’t pay”, he sniffed.)_ > > Some libertarian(s) here have given wrong answers to all three questions, IIRC\> I think we first need to move past that. > > Libertarians have been discussed before, e.g. in [this short Pit thread.](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=697077) **Mods** : Please delete the link if linking to a Pit thread violates a rule. > > I would also like to ask Libertarians who profess to admire the elegance of free market solutions: _What do you think of ideas like **Carbon Tax** , which **improve** free market economics by assessing otherwise unafforded external costs?_ \ I loved it when Libs claimed income taxes were unconstitutional, ignoring the fact that states passed the 16th amendment ---
**Author:** ![fedman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/278dde/32.png) [@fedman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fedman)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2019, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-libertarians-realize-private-citizens-are-just-as-oppressive-as-the-government/835021/99 "2019-06-05T13:02:20Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > Most statists assume that force must be used to compel widespread behavior changes. My point is that people will change behaviors all by themselves if they’re convinced to do so through valid reason and evidence. My cite is most of human history. Laws, where they exist, are _lagging_ indicators of social change, not leading. Most people change their minds and behaviors first, and then pass laws to mandate those changes to the remaining stragglers. > > If you _can’t_ convince people to change, it’s probably not the best idea after all, and you should reexamine the logic and evidence used. If you can convince most people, but a few stubborn holdouts refuse to change for their own good, that’s their business, not yours. > > Governments and their goon squads are not required for social progress. Yes, they might accelerate it in some instances. So what? That doesn’t outweigh the downsides. so what logic, morality, or… would have convinced Southerners to free their slaves? ---
**Author:** ![Barack\_Obama](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/dc4da7/32.png) [@Barack\_Obama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barack_Obama)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2019, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-libertarians-realize-private-citizens-are-just-as-oppressive-as-the-government/835021/100 "2019-06-05T13:07:35Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > You realize governments are made of people right? What happens when the state gets too much power? Things like Hitler’s Germany and Stalin’s USSR become vastly more dangerous to humanity than things like PepsiCo. We have a say so over our government, we vote, and we can sue. A private individual, with no government oversight, does whatever the fuck they want. Can’t sue, no legal system. Can’t vote for how the company you work for runs, because you’re not a share holder. I don’t know why a few people point out the Gov is ran by individuals, I think you’re purposely missing the point. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-libertarians-realize-private-citizens-are-just-as-oppressive-as-the-government/835021.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-libertarians-realize-private-citizens-are-just-as-oppressive-as-the-government/835021.md?page=6)