# Do libraries serve a purpose anymore? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 21, 2008, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-libraries-serve-a-purpose-anymore/478165 "2008-12-21T05:47:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Linty\_Fresh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Linty\_Fresh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Linty_Fresh)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2008, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-libraries-serve-a-purpose-anymore/478165/81 "2008-12-21T21:59:32Z")
Librarian here. Couple of comments. 1. **Many modern libraries don’t stock out of print books:** Depending on where you live, this is very true (It is certainly _not_ true of the Boston Public Library system or the Minuteman Library Network, also located here in the HUB). However, your library might very well participate in Interlibrary Loan, which means that your public library system will be able borrow said out of print book from another library on your behalf so that you can access it for a minimal fee. You might have to wait a big, but this argument doesn’t hold water. 2. **Libraries suck up all our tax dollars:** Bull. Shit. For the services they provide, libraries are dirt cheap. When you consider the percent of the budget being spent on defense, more of your tax dollars went toward paying for the guided missle used to blow up some poor Iraqi kindergartner than ever went toward the library. 3. **What the hell do libraries do, anyway?:** Well, speaking of considering the budget, libraries contain important research tools. Your tax dollars go toward paying for government libraries, which are full of all sorts of important information for the dwindling number of citizens who actually gives a damn about what’s going on in the world. You can research the budget. Also, librarians don’t just check out books. Reference librarians will help you do the research. Might I suggest that you browse for the government library closest to you and actually go research how many of your tax dollars get spent on trying to educate Americans cheaply? Oh yeah, and all those people you see surfing the net? I don’t doubt it. Before you pass judgement on them, though, take a look at what they’re surfing. The well funded Libraries provide online research tools and databases, such as Academic Search Premier and Lexis/Nexis. It’s a reciprocal deal; those online database companies work with libraries, including public libraries, to improve their services. Not everyone browsing the net is surfing [ifuckbarnyardanimals.com](http://ifuckbarnyardanimals.com), and those of u–them–who do probably wouldn’t want to do it in a library anyway. When you consider these points along with the services others already listed . . . Well, what do _you_ think? _I_ think I chose the right career. ---
**Author:** ![ZebraShaSha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/eada6e/32.png) [@ZebraShaSha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZebraShaSha)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2008, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-libraries-serve-a-purpose-anymore/478165/82 "2008-12-21T22:24:45Z")
One thing every culture in the world has in common is narration, the desire to tell stories and parables from generation to generation. In fact, this is the way culture perpetuates itself, through both the type of stories it tells and the values inherit within those stories. Stories teach us what it means to be human, what it means to love, what it means to have honor, and even where are tax dollars should be spent. Typically, in western society at least, the three classic institutions for story telling have been education, the family, and church. However, since the '50s, media research has argued that most people only hear stories from television and radio - mass media, in other words. With people spending so much time watching television, and with only three major networks, television, in the '50s, became the primary way people heard stories, and in turn the way people became normalized in society. From the '50s on, television has taught us what it means to be human, what it means to love, what it means to have honor, and even where are tax dollars should be spent. Things have only gotten worse: 97% of American households have a television, 67% own cable, the average American watches 8 hours of television every single day, and the average American consumes 9.5 hours of media _per day_. Even though the internet exists, the only thing we do more than consume media is breathe. Which is fine, except, in the whole world, there are only about 7 corporations that control the airwaves. Everything we know about who we are and who we should be is determined by just 7 corporations. We live our life enveloped in the ideals, morals, teachings, and trappings of just 7 corporations. That’s why libraries must exist. Mass media isn’t evil, but we need a choice. Even with the internet, we need a choice. A healthy nation can only exist with an elightened citizenry, and if that enlightenment costs practically nothing, it’s a necessity for the government to provide it. It is as important as fire fighters, police, and healthcare. ---
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2008, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-libraries-serve-a-purpose-anymore/478165/83 "2008-12-21T22:29:47Z")
> [@ZebraShaSha](#): > > The average American watches 8 hours of television every single day Um, what? Cite? > [@](#): > > Which is fine, except, in the whole world, there are only about 7 corporations that control the airwaves. Everything we know about who we are and who we should be is determined by just 7 corporations. We live our life enveloped in the ideals, morals, teachings, and trappings of just 7 corporations. Yeah, alright… ---
**Author:** ![IdahoMauleMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/71c47a/32.png) [@IdahoMauleMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IdahoMauleMan)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2008, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-libraries-serve-a-purpose-anymore/478165/84 "2008-12-21T22:33:24Z")
> [@ZebraShaSha](#): > > One thing every culture in the world has in common is narration, the desire to tell stories and parables from generation to generation. In fact, this is the way culture perpetuates itself, through both the type of stories it tells and the values inherit within those stories. Stories teach us what it means to be human, what it means to love, what it means to have honor, and even where are tax dollars should be spent. > > Typically, in western society at least, the three classic institutions for story telling have been education, the family, and church. However, since the '50s, media research has argued that most people only hear stories from television and radio - mass media, in other words. With people spending so much time watching television, and with only three major networks, television, in the '50s, became the primary way people heard stories, and in turn the way people became normalized in society. From the '50s on, television has taught us what it means to be human, what it means to love, what it means to have honor, and even where are tax dollars should be spent. > > Things have only gotten worse: 97% of American households have a television, 67% own cable, the average American watches 8 hours of television every single day, and the average American consumes 9.5 hours of media _per day_. Even though the internet exists, the only thing we do more than consume media is breathe. > > Which is fine, except, in the whole world, there are only about 7 corporations that control the airwaves. Everything we know about who we are and who we should be is determined by just 7 corporations. We live our life enveloped in the ideals, morals, teachings, and trappings of just 7 corporations. > > That’s why libraries must exist. Mass media isn’t evil, but we need a choice. Even with the internet, we need a choice. A healthy nation can only exist with an elightened citizenry, and if that enlightenment costs practically nothing, it’s a necessity for the government to provide it. It is as important as fire fighters, police, and healthcare. 7 corporations that control the airwaves? Why government must provide a choice? For the good of us all? Good Heavens. Lay off the Ralph Nader. At least for a little while. Does one of those 7 corporations control this? Meaning, the SDMB Great Debates Board? Do they control Wikipedia, which by my count is the most linked reference on the SDMB? Do they control the Economist? The countless blogs on the Internet? Jane’s Defense Weekly? Investor’s Business Daily? Do they control the major city newspapers? There used to be all sorts of laws against consolidated control of newspapers, as well, for the reasons you cite above. Is that a problem today? Are major-city newspapers thriving and growing…acting as mind-controlling corporate monsters twisting us to their will? Yes. We must have our money taken away for a government bureaucrat to build a nice brick building downtown and stock it with books and provide free access to the Internet. Which we may, or may not, use. For our own good. ---
**Author:** ![IdahoMauleMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/71c47a/32.png) [@IdahoMauleMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IdahoMauleMan)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2008, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-libraries-serve-a-purpose-anymore/478165/85 "2008-12-21T22:41:00Z")
> [@Linty\_Fresh](#): > > Librarian here. Couple of comments. > When you consider these points along with the services others already listed . . . Well, what do _you_ think? _I_ think I chose the right career. It sounds like you think you are creating tons of value. I think you should have no problem, then, commanding an acceptable salary in the private sector. Go for it. ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2008, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-libraries-serve-a-purpose-anymore/478165/86 "2008-12-21T22:42:23Z")
> [@IdahoMauleMan](#): > > Yes. We must have our money taken away for a government bureaucrat to build a nice brick building downtown and stock it with books and provide free access to the Internet. Which we may, or may not, use. For our own good. Beyond the fact that you don’t use libraries, do you have any argument whatsoever why a miniscule amount of your tax dollars shouldn’t go towards libraries? Because frankly, this is getting tiring. > [@IdahoMauleMan](#): > > It sounds like you think you are creating tons of value. I think you should have no problem, then, commanding an acceptable salary in the private sector. Go for it. Are you aware that a lot of private companies do hire librarians? Information doesn’t just find it self. ---
**Author:** ![BJMoose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/5fc32e/32.png) [@BJMoose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BJMoose)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2008, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-libraries-serve-a-purpose-anymore/478165/87 "2008-12-21T22:44:50Z")
> [@Vox\_Imperatoris](#): > > * * * > > Also, libraries are most definitely not free. The free market can do the exact same thing, but much more efficiently. Piffle. If that were true, then we would actually have thousands of for-profit libraries and damn few public libraries. Lemme see if I can help **IdahoMauleMan** see the light: No doubt there is some sort of public road running past your abode. I’m confident that, if we looked into it, most of the folks in whatever taxing district provided that particular piece of road will never travel it. If their attitude were the same as yours, they would be 1) bitching like hell that that road was ever built at _public_ expense, since the only folks who benefit from it are you and a few neighbors; and 2) would insist that no money be _wasted_ on its maintainance, so that it would eventually crumble into uselessness. Face it. Whether you like it or not, society is a _cooperative_ effort. ---
**Author:** ![IdahoMauleMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/71c47a/32.png) [@IdahoMauleMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IdahoMauleMan)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2008, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-libraries-serve-a-purpose-anymore/478165/88 "2008-12-21T22:53:19Z")
> [@BJMoose](#): > > Piffle. If that were true, then we would actually have thousands of for-profit libraries and damn few public libraries. > Lemme see if I can help **IdahoMauleMan** see the light: > > No doubt there is some sort of public road running past your abode. I’m confident that, if we looked into it, most of the folks in whatever taxing district provided that particular piece of road will never travel it. If their attitude were the same as yours, they would be 1) bitching like hell that that road was ever built at _public_ expense, since the only folks who benefit from it are you and a few neighbors; and 2) would insist that no money be _wasted_ on its maintainance, so that it would eventually crumble into uselessness. > > Face it. Whether you like it or not, society is a _cooperative_ effort. That’s airtight logic. Can’t argue with that. I’m whipped. What does ‘cooperative’ mean to you? ---
**Author:** ![Linty\_Fresh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Linty\_Fresh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Linty_Fresh)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2008, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-libraries-serve-a-purpose-anymore/478165/89 "2008-12-21T22:56:31Z")
> [@IdahoMauleMan](#): > > It sounds like you think you are creating tons of value. I think you should have no problem, then, commanding an acceptable salary in the private sector. Go for it. Why on earth do you assume that I would give up my job just to get a higher salary? Is this a libertarian thing? Some of us actually enjoy public service enough to forgo higher pay, you know. ---
**Author:** ![BJMoose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/5fc32e/32.png) [@BJMoose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BJMoose)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2008, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-libraries-serve-a-purpose-anymore/478165/90 "2008-12-21T22:56:45Z")
> [@IdahoMauleMan](#): > > That’s airtight logic. Can’t argue with that. I’m whipped. > > What does ‘cooperative’ mean to you? Apparently, not what it means to you. :sigh: ---
**Author:** ![IdahoMauleMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/71c47a/32.png) [@IdahoMauleMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IdahoMauleMan)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2008, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-libraries-serve-a-purpose-anymore/478165/91 "2008-12-21T22:58:52Z")
> [@Linty\_Fresh](#): > > Why on earth do you assume that I would give up my job just to get a higher salary? Is this a libertarian thing? Some of us actually enjoy public service enough to forgo higher pay, you know. I didn’t say that. Or at least, I didn’t mean that. I said that if your services were as valuable as you say they are, you should have no problem finding an employer in the private sector. As it is today, your salary is paid for by people who may not wish to pay it. ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2008, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-libraries-serve-a-purpose-anymore/478165/92 "2008-12-21T23:03:32Z")
> [@IdahoMauleMan](#): > > I didn’t say that. Or at least, I didn’t mean that. I said that if your services were as valuable as you say they are, you should have no problem finding an employer in the private sector. As it is today, your salary is paid for by people who may not wish to pay it. But those people are in the minority. And you know what, if every public library shut down tomorrow, I’d imagine that I’d have no trouble finding a private sector job. The modern workplace is all about information and having an “information specialist” (basically, the job title of private sector librarians) on staff would be a great boon to a lot of companies. Also, please make the same argument with regards to policemen, public works employees, firemen, teachers, postal employees and the armed forces. And if you can’t, please detail why they are more deserving of their much larger chunk of tax money than librarians are of their piddly sum. ---
**Author:** ![Linty\_Fresh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Linty\_Fresh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Linty_Fresh)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2008, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-libraries-serve-a-purpose-anymore/478165/93 "2008-12-21T23:05:13Z")
> [@IdahoMauleMan](#): > > I didn’t say that. Or at least, I didn’t mean that. I said that if your services were as valuable as you say they are, you should have no problem finding an employer in the private sector. As it is today, your salary is paid for by people who may not wish to pay it. Certain people may not wish to pay for public education or the military or highways or the GI Bill. I say fuck those people. If they can work up a majority, they can vote our library out, and then God help their community. Until then, they’re living in their own world. They just happen to be sleeping in America. ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2008, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-libraries-serve-a-purpose-anymore/478165/94 "2008-12-21T23:06:47Z")
Simulpost smackdown on **IdahoMauleMan** ’s argument! Anytime you’re ready, I’m dying to hear the answer. ---
**Author:** ![Linty\_Fresh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Linty\_Fresh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Linty_Fresh)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2008, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-libraries-serve-a-purpose-anymore/478165/95 "2008-12-21T23:10:16Z")
> [@Justin\_Bailey](#): > > Simulpost smackdown on **IdahoMauleMan** ’s argument! By librarians, no less. Remember kids: Don’t fuck with people who work with online information for a living. Just a publicly funded safety message from the ALA. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2008, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-libraries-serve-a-purpose-anymore/478165/96 "2008-12-21T23:11:42Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > > [@Originally Posted by Vox Imperatoris](#): > > > > Also, libraries are most definitely not free. The free market can do the exact same thing, but much more efficiently. > > Please explain how the free market would give people free unlimited access to information, and culture. Just to be Devil’s Advocate here, public libraries don’t give ALL people free, unlimited access to information either, so your comparison is not appropriate. Better to ask if, for the same fee charged to taxpayers, a private library would offer more services, the same, or less, and how the difference of funding source would affect what was offered. ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2008, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-libraries-serve-a-purpose-anymore/478165/97 "2008-12-21T23:15:10Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > Just to be Devil’s Advocate here, public libraries don’t give ALL people free, unlimited access to information either, so your comparison is not appropriate. Who does a library not offer access to? I’m unaware of any restrictions on who can walk in the front door and ask the librarian a question. ---
**Author:** ![IdahoMauleMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/71c47a/32.png) [@IdahoMauleMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IdahoMauleMan)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2008, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-libraries-serve-a-purpose-anymore/478165/98 "2008-12-21T23:23:23Z")
> [@BJMoose](#): > > Apparently, not what it means to you. :sigh: Indeed. Sigh. Here’s a wildly tangent thought experiment. Please play along for awhile. I’ll be happy to circle back and tie it back to libraries in a little bit. I think the following things are required for the betterment of society. We should all cooperate and push the following agenda forward, since it is all for our own good. And, in some places, 51+% of the voting populace has supported them via ballot measure, or they have been introduced and voted upon by state legislature. - A restriction on same-sex marriage, since it is evil. The Bible says so, after all. - Outlawing all forms of abortion, since life begins at conception. - Outlawing consumption of alcohol, cigarettes, and unhealthy foods. They add no value to our lives. - Teaching creationism alongside evolution in schools. What do you think? We should all cooperate on those things, shouldn’t we? It’s for our own good, don’t you think? And if 51+% votes on it, that’s that. Right? ---
**Author:** ![Linty\_Fresh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Linty\_Fresh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Linty_Fresh)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2008, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-libraries-serve-a-purpose-anymore/478165/99 "2008-12-21T23:25:58Z")
> [@IdahoMauleMan](#): > > Indeed. Sigh. > > Here’s a wildly tangent thought experiment. Please play along for awhile. I’ll be happy to circle back and tie it back to libraries in a little bit. > > I think the following things are required for the betterment of society. We should all cooperate and push the following agenda forward, since it is all for our own good. And, in some places, 51+% of the voting populace has supported them via ballot measure, or they have been introduced and voted upon by state legislature. > > - A restriction on same-sex marriage, since it is evil. The Bible says so, after all. > - Outlawing all forms of abortion, since life begins at conception. > - Outlawing consumption of alcohol, cigarettes, and unhealthy foods. They add no value to our lives. > - Teaching creationism alongside evolution in schools. > > What do you think? We should all cooperate on those things, shouldn’t we? It’s for our own good, don’t you think? And if 51+% votes on it, that’s that. > > Right? And this has . . . what to do with public services? We’ve made concrete arguments above. Why don’t you just address those? If it’s all the same to you, I’d rather skip the mindfuck “thought experiment” and just get to the point. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2008, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-libraries-serve-a-purpose-anymore/478165/100 "2008-12-21T23:32:32Z")
Are we going for argument by analogy now? That seldom works - especially when you pick out your analogies based on how you want your opponent to answer, rather than their resemblance to the subject at hand. I could pick some unsuitable analogies that go the other way, if you like: “I have no kids, why should I pay for schools?” - “I drive everywhere - why are my tax dollars funding the maintenance of pedestrian sidewalks?”, etc. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-libraries-serve-a-purpose-anymore/478165.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-libraries-serve-a-purpose-anymore/478165.md?page=6)