# Do libraries serve a purpose anymore? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 21, 2008, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-libraries-serve-a-purpose-anymore/478165 "2008-12-21T05:47:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2008, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-libraries-serve-a-purpose-anymore/478165/161 "2008-12-22T20:55:17Z")
> [@sailor](#): > > All I am saying is that I understand why someone would vote for a candidate who proposed reducing, not eliminating, the budget for public libraries. I just do not consider providing internet games to anyone should be done at taxpayer expense, much less in lean times. And this is at the county level so I have no idea what missile research has to do with anything. You seem confused. Again, how would you separate out the costs of websites that offer games from the Internet as a whole? And if you’re talking about kids playing games taking away computers from those that have to do serious research… well, that just doesn’t happen often enough to worry about. > [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](#): > > Why would you think I was ignorant of them? Yes, I believe in many cases the free stuff is as good as the subscription based articles. You would be wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2008, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-libraries-serve-a-purpose-anymore/478165/162 "2008-12-22T21:01:18Z")
> [@Justin\_Bailey](#): > > OK, now show me how you can do it all for $29 a year. And remember, you have to come up with something that provides unlimited access to hundreds of thousands of books, movies, music CDs, reference databases, etc, etc, etc. Your figure of $29 a year has already been shown to be a joke. When the vast majority of tax payers aren’t making use of the library system, and in my case, has no easy access to that system, it’s disingenuous to try to amortize the cost over them. Let’s try a fairer approach: divide the total yearly funding for libraries by the number of distinct users. ---
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2008, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-libraries-serve-a-purpose-anymore/478165/163 "2008-12-22T21:05:53Z")
> [@Indistinguishable](#): > > My two cents: > > The Internet provides myriad services that libraries once performed. It is still nowhere near providing all of them (after all, as pointed out by **Justin Bailey** , just look at the archetypal service provided by libraries: the ability to read the book of one’s choice, something one cannot generally do on the current Internet). Someday, almost every service currently provided by a library will be provided to most by the Internet. That day will be awesome (though libraries or their descendants may still exist to provide other services). But it is a far way off. Actually, the above is probably only worth one cent, since it didn’t really address most of the contentious issues in this thread (should these services be publicly subsidized? Would the free market provide them more efficiently were they not? Etc.). Ah well… ---
**Author:** ![jackdavinci](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackdavinci/32/3259_2.png) [@jackdavinci](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jackdavinci)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2008, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-libraries-serve-a-purpose-anymore/478165/164 "2008-12-22T21:10:37Z")
> [@Spoons](#): > > Here in Alberta, there seems to be a great resistance to such an idea, and library users must pay user fees. How about a tax on lazy and/or busy people? I must have donated hundreds of dollars to various libraries in late fees over my lifetime. University had especially large fine, which I managed to finagle my way into working off. I was so happy to find out that my new public library charges a mere pittance for books overdue even years. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2008, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-libraries-serve-a-purpose-anymore/478165/165 "2008-12-22T21:15:58Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > No, it can’t and won’t. There’s no profit in offering books and Internet access and such free of charge. \< cough \> Starbucks. Einstein Brothers Bagels. McFuckingDonalds all offer ‘free’\* internet services and some offer magazines and newspapers free.\* \*no-charge, at least. ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2008, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-libraries-serve-a-purpose-anymore/478165/166 "2008-12-22T21:19:52Z")
> [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](#): > > Your figure of $29 a year has already been shown to be a joke. When the vast majority of tax payers aren’t making use of the library system, and in my case, has no easy access to that system, it’s disingenuous to try to amortize the cost over them. Let’s try a fairer approach: divide the total yearly funding for libraries by the number of distinct users. [http://www.ala.org/ala/newspresscenter/news/pressreleases2008/September2008/ORSharris.cfm](http://www.ala.org/ala/newspresscenter/news/pressreleases2008/September2008/ORSharris.cfm) 68% of the country has a library card, so please adjust the figure to $48 per person. Still far cheaper than any service in the free market that would attempt to do the same thing. Now then, this survey also reveals that the vast, VAST majority of the population thinks very highly of the library: > [@](#): > > Almost all Americans (92 percent) say they view their local library as an important education resource. Seven of 10 agreed their local library is a pillar of the community (72 percent), a community center (71 percent), a family destination (70 percent) and a cultural center (69 percent). EDITED TO ADD: > [@Fenris](#): > > \< cough \> Starbucks. Einstein Brothers Bagels. McFuckingDonalds all offer ‘free’\* internet services and some offer magazines and newspapers free.\* Don’t forget to add the $500 charge for a laptop. Your tax dollars could fuel library Internet offerings for ten years at that price. ---
**Author:** ![Linty\_Fresh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Linty\_Fresh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Linty_Fresh)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-libraries-serve-a-purpose-anymore/478165/167 "2008-12-23T00:01:13Z")
> [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](#): > > It was one example. You cannot seriously be claiming that the Internet doesn’t provide myriad sources of quality free information, on a range of subjects so huge that most libraries cannot hope to compete? Newsflash, **Ridley** : Not everything you find on the Internet is true. When it comes to information sources, as with most other things in life, you get what you pay for. I’m sort of confused as to why you keep talking about the free market and can’t figure this out. **Lexis/Nexis** , **Academic Search Premier** , **JSTOR** and the other expensive databases beat free Internet hands down. They provide citations and full-text access to articles from newspapers and academic journals that you can’t get for free. They’re not cheap, either. It’s not like your average middle class family and their 2.5 kids are going to be able to subscribe to any of these DB’s, let alone all of them. They have to be provided by an institution. You know, like a public library. I for one have no problem with subsidizing this kind of access for everyone through my taxes. More to the point, I have no problem with _you_ subsidizing this kind of access for everyone through your taxes. I’m not arguing that certain libraries have problems, nor am I arguing that kids playing video games is the absolute best thing to spend my tax dollars on. There’s no such thing as perfect. But a well-run public library helps _everyone_ whether they use it or not, because the lower income people who use it get smarter, and smart people benefit the community. Or maybe they don’t. Maybe they get all smart and go out and get scholarships to business schools and go on to make a bunch of money through predatory lending, but you know what? Fuck it, public libraries are still awesome. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-libraries-serve-a-purpose-anymore/478165/168 "2008-12-23T00:36:14Z")
> [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](#): > > It was one example. You cannot seriously be claiming that the Internet doesn’t provide myriad sources of quality free information, on a range of subjects so huge that most libraries cannot hope to compete? I didn’t say that. HOWEVER, vice-versa: there are somethings you can find in libraries that you cannot find online. AND, some people go to the library to-gasp-USE THE INTERNET!!! Oh, and to use the internet, you also need to own, I don’t know, a computer? And not everyone can afford one. Besides, I love wandering through the stacks, finding old, dusty books that were printed before the Second World War-old magazines likewise, etc. (Crap-I just remembered I better renew MY books by the end of this week!) The OP asked if libraries served a purpose? I think he’s been answered. For many of us, they obviously DO. Like I said, if you tried to close down the Carnegie Library here in Pittsburgh, you’d have a massive protest on your hands. We have an absolutely AWESOME one. Come visit here sometime and check it out! ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-libraries-serve-a-purpose-anymore/478165/169 "2008-12-23T00:39:57Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > > [@Musicat](#): > > > > So, to reiterate, “public libraries don’t give ALL people free, unlimited access to information”. They give the access to all, but it is not free to all. > > Isn’t that balanced out by out of towners not being able to check out books? I’m just making a statement, which you seem to be dancing around but never directly challenging. Do you have a dispute with my statement, or are you just trying to justify how the system works? In my county, out of towners have full access to all of our library’s services, and always have had. It may be different other places. > [@](#): > > Anyway It’s a trade off really. You get to go read books and use most of it’s services in any public library, in return you let people from other districts have access to your library. Why isn’t that equatable? Now you contradicted yourself, and no one said it wasn’t equitable. I stand by my original statement. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-libraries-serve-a-purpose-anymore/478165/170 "2008-12-23T00:55:41Z")
> [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](#): > > Why would you think I was ignorant of them? Yes, I believe in many cases the free stuff is as good as the subscription based articles. Do you also think that the list of a self-publishing company is as good as the list of a real publisher? ---
**Author:** ![Typo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5fc32e/32.png) [@Typo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-libraries-serve-a-purpose-anymore/478165/171 "2008-12-23T00:55:53Z")
My library also has computers available at no charge and also free access to services like [Ancestry.com](http://Ancestry.com) and HeritageQuest. I haven’t been able to find the same information for free anywhere else on the Internet. [FamilySearch.org](http://FamilySearch.org) and Rootsweb are great, absolutely, but Ancestry’s apparently where the best information is at. A lot of newspapers and magazines are also only available on microfilm - there is still a lot of information that simply can’t be obtained on the Internet. All the search engines in the world won’t help you find what’s not online - and I’ll take a librarian’s assistance over a search engine’s any day of the week. ---
**Author:** ![Lsura](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7993a0/32.png) [@Lsura](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lsura)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-libraries-serve-a-purpose-anymore/478165/172 "2008-12-23T00:56:24Z")
> [@Fenris](#): > > \< cough \> Starbucks. Einstein Brothers Bagels. McFuckingDonalds all offer ‘free’\* internet services and some offer magazines and newspapers free.\* > > \*no-charge, at least. Except guess what? You have to own a laptop computer to use the internet in these places. Wait…that costs money, and there are still lots of people who don’t have computers in their homes (I’m including laptops in that phrase). > [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](#): > > Use another search engine. Oh yes, because that will provide access to everything. Nope. There is still a lot of information behind pay walls. Also, how do you know the information you find is good information - I can find you something that will prove or disprove just about anything. It’s just a matter of finding the source you want. A key thing that libraries try to teach people is the idea of information literacy - not all information is good information (in terms of truth, accuracy, currency, etc), but not everyone knows this. > [@](#): > > Get it. Dial up’s cheap, as are most broadband packages in the UK, especially if you already have cable TV. Home internet access is not something that’s required. It is a luxury, especially if you’re struggling to make rent, transportation, food and utility bills. Sorry, if I have to choose between eating and internet, I’ll buy the food. Oh yeah, and in order to use that internet that I pay for I have to have a computer - that’s not realistic for many people. Your biases are showing - not everyone can buy a computer or afford internet access at home. And not everyone wants one in the house. > [@](#): > > Buy it for 40p from Amazon marketplace. > > Blockbuster. Better range of movies, too. Or do without. In order to buy it from Amazon, you have to have some means of paying for it. And you have to find it using a computer - oh, but I make minimum wage and after paying my rent, buying food and paying the water and electric, there’s no money left over for a computer or internet access. Guess I won’t be buying from Amazon then. Sucks to be me. And because I don’t make a lot of money, I shouldn’t be able to watch movies? Because if I can’t afford to rent one from Blockbuster I sure can’t afford to go see a movie in the theater. > [@](#): > > Learndirect. But to do this, I have to: 1. have a computer, with access to the internet 2. know how to get to the internet 3. know that this site exists 4. know how to get there and use it 5. be able to pay for the course. But wait! I can’t afford a computer or internet access, much less the course. Amazing though, that I can go to my local library (I’m sorry yours sucks: visit a good one sometime when you travel, seriously), where I can take a class to help me learn to use a computer, and find out that I’m not the only person who doesn’t know how to do these things. ---
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-libraries-serve-a-purpose-anymore/478165/173 "2008-12-23T01:05:42Z")
> [@Lsura](#): > > A key thing that libraries try to teach people is the idea of information literacy - not all information is good information (in terms of truth, accuracy, currency, etc), but not everyone knows this. Discernment of such things is a vital skill, no doubt, but how do libraries teach it? ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-libraries-serve-a-purpose-anymore/478165/174 "2008-12-23T01:07:29Z")
> [@Fenris](#): > > \< cough \> Starbucks. Einstein Brothers Bagels. McFuckingDonalds all offer ‘free’\* internet services Huh? Every McDonalds and Starbucks I know of where I am charge for Internet whether you buy anything or not. I would’ve thought something like that would be a corporate standard across the board, especially when you think of expenses for printing different notices and such… ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-libraries-serve-a-purpose-anymore/478165/175 "2008-12-23T01:07:37Z")
> [@Justin\_Bailey](#): > > [http://www.ala.org/ala/newspresscenter/news/pressreleases2008/September2008/ORSharris.cfm](http://www.ala.org/ala/newspresscenter/news/pressreleases2008/September2008/ORSharris.cfm) > > 68% of the country has a library card, so please adjust the figure to $48 per person. Still far cheaper than any service in the free market that would attempt to do the same thing. You just made my day with that statistic. When I go to the library, I see tons of mothers checking out a dozen picture books each for their kids. I suspect they do this week after week. How much would that cost on Amazon? And what is the benefit to society of all these kids growing up with a love for books and the written word? I bet it is a lot more than $29 a person. In our district, the school libraries are awful (budget cuts) so students go to the public library. Think of the economies in not having all those resources in each school library. That saves the taxpayers a bundle Here in Silicon Valley the libraries also have good business reference sections, perfect for people thinking about doing a startup or finding a job. Helping a person get employed faster saves a lot on unemployment and lost taxes. Sure there could be private resources, but that would be an additional cost just when a person can least afford it. If I remember my history correctly, lending libraries predate free public libraries. Clearly the public libraries have out-competed the pay ones. I’m guessing the real problem is that the libertarians have a huge problem with admitting that the public sector does some things better and more efficiently than the private sector. ---
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-libraries-serve-a-purpose-anymore/478165/176 "2008-12-23T01:07:45Z")
> [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](#): > > Further, the books they stock are complete trash—the whole thing is set up for the lowest common denominator. To get access to any sort of decent book you either have to buy it yourself or wait a week for an intralibrary loan to come through. A week! What is this, 1860? The arrival of the Internet made waiting a week for information untenable. Those books you want… how long does it take you to get them over the Internet? ---
**Author:** ![Lsura](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7993a0/32.png) [@Lsura](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lsura)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-libraries-serve-a-purpose-anymore/478165/177 "2008-12-23T01:37:19Z")
> [@Indistinguishable](#): > > Discernment of such things is a vital skill, no doubt, but how do libraries teach it? I can only speak specifically to academic libraries on short notice (though if it wasn’t dinner time I could find similar things for public libraries), but for one example, take a look at a module the Vanderbilt libraries built - [What the C.R.A.P.?](http://www.library.vanderbilt.edu/visions/what.html) On top of that, within each class that I teach to the students I work with, I build in elements of the[Information Literacy Standards](http://www.acrl.org/ala/mgrps/divs/acrl/issues/infolit/infolitstandards/standardstoolkit.cfm)as expressed by the Association of College and Research Libraries. How I specifically build it in varies from class to class - since I work primarily with business students, I do a lot of focusing on finding and evaluating business information. Both on the web and in the databases. One aspect of Info Lit that I run into a LOT is that we have a large number of pay databases where I work, and I have students who come in to see me and say “I searched, but I found so much - how do I do this better?” and more efficiently. That too, is one of the marks of being information literate - knowing when you need help finding the information. I’d bet one of my public librarian colleagues can quickly point to efforts they make to help kids and teens evaluate information effectively. ---
**Author:** ![5-HT](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/5/f19dbf/32.png) [@5-HT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/5-HT)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-libraries-serve-a-purpose-anymore/478165/178 "2008-12-23T01:42:01Z")
> [@Smokinjbc](#): > > Books may be plentiful, but I would not call them cheap. I recently began taking advantage of our community library system and I have been amazed at what is available. All free. I have access to research, the internet/computer use if my computer dies (library saved my butt during NanoWriMo). After wasting countless dollars on crappy books, I went through a two year period where I pretty much just re-read the books I already had. Now that books are free, I go through a new book or two per week. LOVE the library, hope it is never eliminated. when you include the used books available on Amazon, they are indeed very, very cheap. I frequently get books on there for under a dollar. That said, not every book is like that. Libraries undoubtedly serve a purpose for that reason alone. ---
**Author:** ![Sonnenstrahl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/82dd89/32.png) [@Sonnenstrahl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sonnenstrahl)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-libraries-serve-a-purpose-anymore/478165/179 "2008-12-23T04:00:09Z")
> [@5-HT](#): > > when you include the used books available on Amazon, they are indeed very, very cheap. I frequently get books on there for under a dollar. > > That said, not every book is like that. Libraries undoubtedly serve a purpose for that reason alone. I do notice when I order through [abebooks.com](http://abebooks.com) that shipping within the US is often cheaper than in Canada (as is everything…) but you still have to add at least $3-4 to each book. I rarely order used popular novels for that reason - it’s usually at least $8-9 just to ship within Canada, so I might as well pay the same $10 and get the book immediately from Chapters or Amazon. And that’s only if I really want to own the book; I use the library, both public and university, for the 90% of other books I read. This is one of the strangest debates I’ve seen here in a while. Where on earth did this vehement anti-library group spring from? ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-libraries-serve-a-purpose-anymore/478165/180 "2008-12-23T04:20:21Z")
> [@Sonnenstrahl](#): > > Where on earth did this vehement anti-library group spring from? Ayn Rand’s fevered loins. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-libraries-serve-a-purpose-anymore/478165.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-libraries-serve-a-purpose-anymore/478165.md?page=10)