Arguments about the validity of mandatory taxes don’t belong here. The issue of whether taxation is valid is a separate one from that of the worth of libraries. Please stay on point. The issue is, given that we should have taxes, are libraries one of the things we should spend tax money on? The answer is yes, because:
The cost to benefit ratio is amazing. Citizens get nearly unlimited access to a huge range of services and materials for a very small cost. But even if it was more expensive:
The citizenry wants it (and makes extensive use of it). And yes, majority opinion matters on the subject of budgetary spending, and is not comparable to majority opinion on social rights and freedoms which is a separate issue (which is why there are often separate mechanisms for them). But even if people weren’t that keen on it:
It’s a cornerstone of the democratic process to have a large freedom of access to education and information. Libraries are fundamental to the very nature of democracy.
I’m interested in hearing thoughts from Idaho and Vox on Musicat’s earlier questions: whether they think a private library with the same fee as public library “charges” in taxes, would offer more, the same, or fewer books and services, and whether the source of funding would affect the offerings.
Or do they think is this not relevant because of the “vote with your feet” argument?
Failed states lack effective government – IOW, they have minimal government by default. Some Third World countries have minimal government because that’s all they can afford or because that’s all the rulers care to provide; the results are never admirable. That’s the point. Take away the overbearing nanny-state you so despise and you don’t get a Libertarian Mary-Suetopia like the America of L. Neil Smith’s The Probability Broach; you get post-invasion Iraq or something not much better.
There is practically zero leverage on the part of the taxpayer to effect change via payment for using the service, or not.
There is no short feedback loop, free-ish market mechanism to force behavior change on the part of many local governmental agencies…not just the library. A library is merely one example. If you go back to my first 1 or 2 posts, that was the reason I jumped in. To counteract the assertion that the burden is on the citizen to prove why he should be allowed to keep his/her money, and not the other way around.
The local elevator inspection authority might be another case. The public school union is the classic case.
Here are a couple of ideas, in order of ascending freedom, and descending oversight by government, to aid the working poor.
A blanket voucher - or cash - for the working poor, EITC-type. They can use it for whatever they want. Education. Health Care. The library. Hookers in Vegas. A new plasma TV. If they don’t spend it on those things, it’s their own damn fault. But they have maximum flexibility to tailor the funds as they see fit. I like this approach best, personally. Good luck selling it politically.
Subdivided vouchers for the working poor. One for education…say $xx,000 per year for school-age. One for health insurance. Maybe one more for something else we think is of a strategic national interest. My personal favorite would be a flat carbon tax on retail sales of gasoline and diesel to improve American fuel-efficiency, and an ‘energy voucher’ for the poor to help offset that.
Strip away all of the restrictive regulation on education and insurance and let the needy spend the vouchers as they see fit. Strip out all of the taxes and school boards and adminstrative oversight committees and janitors’ unions and everything else associated with the current system of education.
One thing they could spend their education funds on would be library cards. That is, if they think the library is so great. It shouldn’t be that much money, right? If everybody wants one they can use their voucher to buy one.
If not, then you’ve gotten your market signal that the public just doesn’t value the library as much as you think they do.
My problem isn’t really with the libraries (I use mine) or with the librarians. Even if that is hard to believe given the rhetoric on this thread. It’s with the notion that the burden is on the citizen to justify why the government shouldn’t intrude into his/her life and wallet, rather than the other way around.
The burden, sir, is on anyone who wants to significantly change the status quo – whatever it is, but especially when there is nothing obviously wrong with the status quo. There is nothing obviously wrong with our tax-supported public-library systems.
As for the 9.5 hours a day with media total, I couldn’t find anything quickly, but there’s this article, which claims that Americans on average spent 3,530 hours with media in 2006, which works out to roughly 12 hours a day - even more than 9.5 hours.
Media concentration is a very grey and strange area, but here is a good overview. Of note, notice that 90% of media in America is owned by 6 corporations.
There are four theories of media. Fortunately, the libertarian theory is no longer widely practiced. In America, since the Hutchins commission in 1940, the media has largely operated under the social responsibility theory of the press. But that’s too much of a hijack, just read over them here.
I contend that libraries are an extension of the governments responsibility to keep the citizenry informed.
Note that your link gives a figure of only 4 hours and 35 minutes per individual viewer. The 8 hours figure is not for the average American, but, rather, taken over the entire household.
Ohhhhh, I get it. Your problem isn’t with libraries in and of themselves, but the entire public education system . . . well, actually, with the entire tax system as reflected through your libertarian mindset.
Sorry, but this is a thread on the purpose of libraries in and of themselves. I don’t debate libertarianism for the same reason I don’t debate Scientology: I like to keep my interactions with the true believers to a minimum, 'cause, well, Scientology and libertarianism are both kind of weird.
“Do libraries serve a purpose anymore?” This sounds like library users are all a small, pathetic bunch of Poindexters with busted eyeglasses who can’t compete out in the real world with all the rich, cool kids who have so many better things to do, like toss empty beer cans out of their Ferraris… This is one of the stupidest questions I have ever read on this site… I have checked out a minimum of three books a month for the last 20 years from my library, which is one of the busiest in the state. I have used their computers when my own, as often happens, shts the bed. I brought my daughter to their kids programs for 10 years and she did summer volunteer work there… I don’t care to purchase my books, thank you, I own more than enough already. in fact our library accepts donations of books, DVDs, CDs and they sort all these out and have a 2-day book sale that makes thousands of dollars. And I say with all truth I look forward to that book sale more than fuking Christmas. So now the government wants to reduce whatever it gives for libraries 20%. … Happy now? … Our library will not go under, yes it does serve a purpose just like street lights, firemen, and the police department do. (Though I do wish they’d can that obnoxious fat girl who’s worked there for years. She has a face like Petunia Pig and has enough piercings to stock a Claire’s Boutique, and has the worst snotty attitude for someone who looks like such a fool. Though her personality has taken a turn for the better since she’s down to 200 lbs.) The Friends of The Library and many bored housewives and retirees would be glad to support the place.
Ah you guys don’t understand. Idaho…wants his right to opt out. i suppose he wants to map the city he lives in and he will mark the roads he drives on. Then he should not pay taxes for the roads he does not use. He should kick in a percentage for his neighborhood cops. You should pay for the ones in your neighborhood. If his house does not catch on fire ,he has not used the fire department and owes nothing. There is no reason for street lights outside his neighborhood. if you want them, you pay for them. He is a modern mountain man and has no use for societies trappings. Do not infringe on his right to opt out of everything. Parks should have user fees. Sidewalks should have meters. you pay as you step.
I run field trips introducing young elementary students to the public library. At one point, I tell them that there are two very important things they need to know about the library:
Libraries are for everyone. It doesn’t matter what kind of person you are; you ought to be able to find the information you need to know. (One Latino kid asked, “Even Mexicans?”)
Libraries should be free (as much as possible). No one should have to pay to find out the things they need to know.*
*(Caveat for adults: Yes, libraries are supported with taxes–but a good portion of the people who use libraries don’t make enough money to pay a lot of taxes. Any regular library user is going to get far more service out of the library than they pay for in taxes (heck, one ILL will take care of your yearly library tax burden).)
My hometown has a decent college library, & a nice (if short of scholarly works) public library on the other side of town. I live closer to the public library, so I use it more. I keep up with various magazines to which I am not a subscriber; I can get a ridiculous amount of stuff through inter-library loan (I’m terrified that they’ll say, “OK, you’re abusing it, we won’t get you anymore obscure foreign films unless you pay a premium”)–& without a fee, as they’re tax-funded. Yes, they serve a purpose.
In that case I would revise my support and vote for cutting funds to the libraries. I don’t see why the general taxpayer should be paying for kids playing computer games at any time, much less in times of financial difficulties. Funds are limited and I think there are higher priorities for public money…
You’re not paying for “kids playing gamres”, you’re paying for access to the Internet.
Games are not inherently better or worse than books or movies of music CDs. They’re all just types of media. Picking a game at random could produce The Oregon Trail or Math Blaster or Super Mario Galaxy. Choosing a book at random could produce Harlequin Romance #1356 (yes they go that high): A Secretary Nails Her Boss And Then Falls in Love With Him.
The free market is not free, either. The libraries are a place people can go to learn that don’t have the money to buy books. They serve millions of people, it would be a bad day if they were closed. They do more than supply books. I don’t think there is any danger of such a valuable resource to the public being closed. If you have the money to buy books that’s great, millions of others don’t.
Thinking back on my childhood and the subsequent raising of my own children, libraries are one of the few man-made constants for which I remain grateful.
We all pay taxes and I’m not thrilled that most of my taxes go support things I’m vehemently against. I pay them because Jesus said to - or else I wouldn’t. I’m all for helping the poor, the downtrodden, the sick, and in general those who need help, but I object to being forced to support wars and programs which segregate people and/or cause them harm.
The Canadian government once spent something like $2.5million of our tax dollars, and a sizeable block of time, to find out why three year old’s fall off tricycles. I kid you not. Any mother could have told them that in ten seconds or less for nothing! A glance at what grants are given out for is enough to prove Einstein was right when he said ‘The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits’! Amen!
Libraries serve as oracles of what is good about our time and times past. The classical works of the best writers and thinkers since the Guttenberg press was invented are preserved there and are accessible to us all. I’m guessing I must have checked out and read over 1,000 books from libraries over the years and the other members of my immediate family probably have as well. We do have an extensive library at home but have books stacked in several places in our house simply because we ran out of shelf space a long time ago.
We routinely donate videos to the library as we replace them with DVD’s and from time to time we’ll prune our collection and donate books our family has outgrown. Now that our children all have their own households we have less need for certain novels and textbooks etc.
We have to pay for library cards and they’re incredibly inexpensive in most places. I’d pay more, if it were necessary, to help keep libraries functioning and healthily stocked. The Internet is a useful tool that makes research easier, but nothing will ever take the place of a good book. Ebooks (which format my novels are also available in) don’t provide the same level of enjoyment, or kind of experience, as curling up on the sofa with a good book and getting lost in a delicious story.
Humankind is diverse and cultures differ widely, but not one exists that doesn’t value stories and the history of their progenitors - fictionalized or not. Our libraries ensure we’ll always have that and are indispensable in my opinion - worth what you paid for it, of course. - Jesse.
I’m glad to see so much of this feeling in this thread–that libraries are fully paid for by taxes. Here in Alberta, there seems to be a great resistance to such an idea, and library users must pay user fees. They’re not much–$10 or $12 a year per adult, and free for children–but having gone through some hard times myself in a different province that had no user fees, and having found the public library a great source of free entertainment (taxes notwithstanding), I have to say that such user fees stick in my craw. So I’m glad to see that others feel “no one should have to pay.”
Let’s allow A to designate that all his tax payments go for national defense. Let’s allow B to designate that all his tax payments go for library support. So long as most of the tax income is undesignated (and I believe it will be), the budget makers will simply allocate those unrestricted funds in such a manner that national defense still gets what it always got and libraries still get what they always got; no more, no less. I call it “The Big Pot Theory of Budgeting” - given the size of pot, it really doesn’t matter if a couple of the carrots tossed into it have restrictions attached.
