Hmm, I think Travelocity is a little buggy; the rate they quote from New York to London on those dates, for two adults and two children, is $2634.40, and I doubt very much that it costs $3,400 to get a family from Greenville to NYC. This is still pricey – I’d want to do some comparison shopping with a live, human travel agent – but a lot more reasonable.
Thank you all for your comments. I am surprised that you have confirmed what I thought was an urban myth.
Having read the posts above. I believe some (not all) of you have missed the point. The purpose of travel is not to cover miles. It is irrelevant that the USA is similar in size to Europe.
As many of you point out, the USA is large and diverse but most Americans share similar cultures. If they never leave the USA, they will never taste the deep cultural diversity that exists in the world.
The purpose fo foreign travel is to experience alternative cultures, to meet people who do not share your language and do not have a shared history.
When I walked around a village in the Russian countryside, or on a street in Jamaica, it was mentally stimulating. My mind was enriched, and I came to understand that there are people with equally valid and vibrant cultures - just as valid and vibrant as my own - of which I am proud.
I confess to being puzzled. If most of you never leave the USA, then the ordinary people of the USA can have no rational comprehension of the world outside. How can they deal rationally with a world they cannot understand? Your dealings will only injure those you deal with, and injure you.
My greatest fear is that this is the road to more horrors like 9/11, and god forbid that that should ever be so.
This is a Great Debate issue, and perhaps we should move it there, to a different thread.
(Speaking slowly . . .) Well. . . you see . . . we have these things called newspapers . . . and some of us access the Internet.
In any case, I don’t think your logic skills are quite up to Great Debates just yet.
[[I confess to being puzzled. If most of you never leave the USA, then the ordinary people of the USA can have no rational comprehension of the world outside. How can they deal rationally with a world they cannot understand? Your dealings will only injure those you deal with, and injure you.]]
I would take it a step further and say you have to LIVE in another culture for awhile before you get much insight into how it really is. “Walking down a street” in another country will give you a taste of how others live, but more time is really valuable. Traveling doesn’t INSTILL understanding and insight about others. Plenty of people travel and learn very little about other places.
And yes, I do think this has become a Great Debate, so off it goes.
Jill
ps - I attended a conference in my own state last week in which many people were speaking a different language from mine: Navajo!
Well you could always argue that really America is just an off shoot of europe and it’s history. Ok I admit there’s German and English history but it always seems that there’s just too many connections through marriage and wars. And if say German and English are “different” enough do immigrants of these countries have different enough histories in the US to give us this experience?
Ok, I admit it. I have no passport and I have very little interest in any of these things. After doing 8 semesters(yes, I mean it the way it sounds) of foreign languge(because it was shoved down my throat) at university what interested I might have once had has of course been totally obliterated. Then again I’m probably an unusual case.(Well Ok, I want to go to Italy but that’s more to see some of my family in the old country.)
In the 28 April 2002 Los Angeles Times travel section, this information is provided:
I don’t know if that’s a lot of Americans or not, but I was one of them during both years.
I found statistics about the number of travel to foreign countries/100 persons in 1998. The page was in French, so I’m not giving a link, but it was on the Unesco site. So, I assume, it should be easily available on the english version too.
Unsurprisingly , the citizens of little and affluent countries lead the pack. Though there are some weird exceptions. Here’s the top 20 (assuming I didn’t make some mistake while compiling the figures):
1)Singapore (210 foreign travels/100 persons)
2)Switzerland (164)
3)Austria (162)
4)Netherlands (150)
5)Belgium (118)
6)Germany (96)
7)Ireland and UK (83)
9)Sweden (76)
10)Moldavia (68)
11)Canada (66)
12)Norway (61)
13)Lesotho (59)
14)Finland (56)
15)Uruguay (55)
16)Estonia (54)
17)Slovenia (51)
18)Lithuania (50)
19)New-Zealand (43)
20)Israel and Latvia (40)
Australia, Italy, France and Spain are in the 30-40 travels/100 persons range.
The US is 29th with 24 foreign travel/100 persons
By the way what should I write? X trevel/100 persons? X travel/100 individuals? X travel/100 heads? X travel/100 people?
I would suspect they don’t. Would you be able to tell apart an american of british descent and another of german descent by their language, the food they eat, their behavior in a public place, their everyday way of life, the education they received, etc…?
Many people have stated that europeans who didn’t visit the states don’t realize how large the country is. That could be true. But I would suspect that American people who never visited Europe don’t realize how diverse this continent is, either…Being dropped in the middle of Ljubljana, I would probably have a hard time guessing if I’m in Slovenia or Austria (as long as nobody is speaking), but in the middle of Sarajevo, there’s no doubt I’m not in the UK.
Not any more or less than anyone else. I do my best to to remain fair and objective. Being human, and male means I do have my faults, though. 
Yes, born and raised in the USA to American born and raised parents. If I wasn’t a Yank, the law would prevent me from having the job that I do have.
Well I’ll conceed it depends on the community we’re talking about. In this area(Boston) it’s pretty obvious the North End is Italian. You definitely see Italian people, hear Italian, and smell Italian food. Come to think of it maybe it’s easier for me to notice since my dad’s side is Italian.(Yes, lots of people on that side actually speak Italian)
Anyway I’ll agree with some communties they’ve kind of lost their roots so it’s not like visiting a different culture.(But there are places in the US that definitely have their own culture.)
It cost me less then that for a week in Orlando.
Marc
**
It is not irrelevant when it comes to why Americans travel abroad less. It is relevant because it has something to do with the cost of travel and time constraints.
**
Are you kidding? I can get a taste of deep cultural diversity without leaving the United States.
**
That may be your purpose but I’m not so sure everyone has the same goal in mind. All those British folks cruising the Mediterranian beaches are there to share culture and language? I can assure you that my sister did not go to Cancun to exchange cultural values and langauge.
**
By that logic nobody can have a rational understanding of how to deal with any nation they have not visited. A Canadian need not visit the United States to understand what the timber war is all about. A Frenchman need not visit the United States to hate McDonalds.
Why don’t more Americans travel abroad? Because we don’t have to. I can go skiing, climb mountains, visit amusement parks, swim with dolphins, go surfing, and do just about anything else without having to leave the country or learn a new language. If somebody in Norway wants to visit a balmy beach he’s probably going to have to leave the country.
Marc
I was trying to be brief, not saying that a walk on a street is enough. I traveled the countryside of Western Russia with a Russian, and stayed in homes. I spoke with many Russians. I did not become an expert on Russia, and I will never be without living there and studying the country. Instead, I now appreciate Russian culture, and I have some understanding about what makes Russia different. And those differences are stimulating.
As a separate point, as I said on another thread, I saw an old woman picking scraps of fat off the ground in a Russian meat market, because her pension would not feed her. To see is to understand.
I agree that some tourists make little contact with the local culture. However, traveling abroad teaches that there are other cultures, other ways of seeing things, that the majority of other countries do not speak English, that other nations have their own histories. It gives a chance of mental expansion which many people will not otherwise get.
:rolleyes:
(Speaking slowly. . . ) Well . . . you see . . . you have these things called Am-er-i-can newspapers. Have you ever read quality foreign newspapers? In English or another language? If you do, you will see how silly the above statement is. You may also get a few shocks to your belief systems and assumptions.
Are you seriously saying that the Internet gives access to other cultures? The English-speaking internet is heavily dominated by American sites, users and culture. It is highly inaccurate, with mistakes on one site being echoed by a hundred more until the error becomes truth - internet myth.
Anyway, you cannot experience reality through print or through a TV screen. You must rub shoulders with the people, smell the scents and hear the wind in the olive trees. Until you have done that, you will never get the point.
I’m starting to detect an increasing note of cultural envy here. Anyway, yeah, aside from the world-bestriding colossus of American media, I also read the Economist and Tass and China’s People’s every day on line, which gives the lie to your assertion that the Internet only has American-related stuff. Please, we appreciate your admiration, but don’t give us too much credit.
(Rubbing hands in anticipation.) OK, now that we do find ourselves in Great Debates, do you have anything at all to back that fuzzy-wuzzy assertion, aside fwom youh own fuzzy-wuzzy wittle feewings? Can you point to any objective evidence to the effect that the national proportion of passport holders has a positive effect on a country’s foreign policy?
BTW, just to save time and get some rebuttals in early: well-travelled Europe seems to have more than its own share of insular xenophobes, as demonstrated by Le Pen’s recent showing. And they sure seemed willing to stand by and let the Serbs have the run of Bosnia.
Doghouse - relax and chill out. I was responding to your original post, which was not well-mannered. You attacked me and you are attacking me for what you think I mean, not for what I say.
- I am very pleased that you personally access good stuff on the net. Your sources look like an interesting selection of foreign news sites. I might not make all the same choices, but one man’s fish is another man’s poisson.
Do you believe that your eclectic taste reflects that of the average internet user on your street?
- If you read what I said (and what you quoted), I did not say that the internet “only has American-related stuff”. I said
That is factual. There are many non-US sites using English. However, there are far more US net users and sites, because Americans invented it. There are also more because of the lower cost of internet calls in US.
For obvious reasons, French-, Russian- and Arabic-speaking sites have less American influence because few Americans internet in these languages.
Not everyone is a well read, wide ranging American like you. If one is not, it is easy to be trapped in a circle of US based sites, and to fail to recognise alternative views out there. Some threads on SDMB fall into this trap - unconsciously everyone has similar assumptions. Together, they turn upon anyone who disagrees, and tear him asunder. No one listens to the outsider.
- I did not mean to link American dominance of the net with lack of accuracy. Inaccuracy was meant to be a distinct point, not connected. I apologise for any misunderstanding caused by the juxtaposition of the two points.
Again, inaccuracy is factual. The internet is a stew of good and bad, and it is often hard to detect which is which. I would not rely on many sites without heavy checking. There is a great danger when you try to learn about foreign cultures from sites produced in those cultures.
As an example, many innocent American-Irish sites link to http://larkspirit.com/general/irishhub.html It pretends to be a normal Irish site with lots of interesting links. In fact it is a front for extreme left-wing groups, most of whom support or formerly supported terrorist violence. The reading matter and many links are not neutral “Irish Interest” , but further their causes. Would an innocent reader know this?
- With great respect, it is factual that you cannot experience true reality via print or TV screen. A picture or a paragraph describes reality. The finger pointing at the moon is not the moon itself.
Seeing a picture of the Grand Canyon, or reading a scientific treatise about it - these are nothing compared with standing at it. They may enrich the experience, but they are not the experience. You cannot understand what Cannes is like unless you go to the South of France. And you cannot understand what Belgians or Afghans or Jamaicans are like until you meet them at their home.
- My original query was prompted by curiosity, because I thought I had found an urban myth. I was amazed to discover that it was not a myth, and that few Americans had passports.
I never said “that the national proportion of passport holders has a positive effect on a country’s foreign policy”. However, it may be true if the country’s foreign policy affects the rest of the world.
Europeans do not claim to know what is right for the world. We travel between each other’s countries and meet each other. We are not perfect, and we admit that. We have made huge progress - no major war in western Europe for two generations, for the first time in centuries. We are working on problems such as Jean Marie Le Pen and the fears that created him.
America under Mr. Bush has asserted itself as regulator of right and wrong in the world - many Americans speak of the global policeman or globocop (including on the SDMB). If so many Americans refuse to experience the outside world, how can they be trusted to make decisions which will make the world a bettter place?
It’s like Roman Catholic priests advising on marriage. In Ireland today, their flocks ask what celibates know about the subject.
Balor: *If so many Americans refuse to experience the outside world, how can they be trusted to make decisions which will make the world a bettter place? *
Well, Balor, what percentage of citizens traveling abroad do you consider the minimum for enabling a country to “make decisions which will make the world a better place”? If there’s actually a qualifying exam for Responsible Superpower status, tell us what the requirements are. (Mind you, I am not thoroughly comfortable with the American superpower role or American mass media these days myself, but I don’t think that just berating Americans for general cultural obtuseness is much use. And by the way, while I agree that European opinion tends to be less unilateralist and more in favor of international cooperation than current American policy, I wouldn’t say that “Europeans do not claim to know what is right for the world.”)
Kimstu
(passport holder for 15 years, visits Europe every couple years, has lived in Asia)
I agree with several of the posts regarding the “Why” we Americans do not travel internationally. I would like to point out to our “internationally located” dopers another item to take into consideration on the costs.
I have found, YMMV, that travel costs FROM the USA to Europe, etc., to be far more expensive for citizens of the US than of European countries. Perhaps a real life example will be helpful…
My wedding is coming up in May and we are having it in Moscow. From Moscow, we plan to honeymoon in Turkey on the Mediterranean (sp?). To book this week in Turkey from the US, the costs are over 4,000.00 USD. My soon to be mother-in-law booked the same resort (all inclusive, etc.) on our behalf from Moscow and we are going for under 500.00 per person.
In conversations with my soon to be in-laws in Moscow, they travel frequently through Europe, Turkey, Egypt, etc., etc., and the prices they get for these trips continues to boogle my American mind - who wouldn’t visit Egypt for 300.00 for a week including airfare???
So my point being, perhaps our international dopers should drop take that into consideration prior to making judgement calls on ‘qualifications’ for world leadership, etc.
Anyway, just another spin on this OP.
Me?
Russia
Mexico - and not just Tijuana!
Columbia
Venezuela
Canada - and not just Windsor although I liked it there the best!
45 of the 50 states
Coming up in the next year, possible Australia and/or Kuala Lampur (sp?) for work.
MeanJoe
I know people who have made offers to Priceline lower than the price from Hotwire or 1Travel.com, and got their ticket. So Priceline can work very well, in some circumstances.
Ed
As Americans we may also underestimate hwo easy it is to travel from one country to another, especially in Europe, once you are over there. It is kind of the corollary to Europeans misunderstanding how hard it is for Americans (time, money, etc.) to do the same. Wehn I visitied London a couple of years ago, i got my passport for the first time, at 32 years old. My friend in London was dumbfounded, they had already applied for a passport for her newborn nephew.
I decided to see about going to Dublin for a few days. Air fare from Luton to Dublin, Nine pounds…round trip. After taxes, it came to about $35 US. Other places I could have gone, Paris, Amsterdam, Stockholm, Barcelona, Munich…all for amazingly cheap. I really had no idea, I had just assumed it would be expensive and a pain int he arse, but it waasn’t.
The questions you asked were this:
“Is that true, even approximately?”
and
“If there is a basis for this, what is the cause?”
I believe both questions were answered correctly. One of the main reasons WHY Americans don’t travel that much is that the USA is so large. So the fact that the USA is similar in size to Europe is relevant to the question you actually asked. You didn’t say anything about the “purpose of travel”.
Ed