# Do many Jews regard the commemorative events (Passover, Purim, etc.) as real historical events? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 12, 2023, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-many-jews-regard-the-commemorative-events-passover-purim-etc-as-real-historical-events/983918 "2023-05-12T01:23:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![PhillyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@PhillyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhillyGuy)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2023, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-many-jews-regard-the-commemorative-events-passover-purim-etc-as-real-historical-events/983918/41 "2023-05-13T00:55:12Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > The holiday is named Passover. > > Saying anything else is central is like saying that the central point of Christmas is Santa Claus. Wikipedia tells me that the holiday we call Easter is called the equivalent of Pesach/Passover in Latin and Greek. As for English, the word Easter has as little to do with the religious meaning of the holiday as it has to do with a large rabbit. (Easter seems to be the name of a pagan spring-time godess.) ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2023, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-many-jews-regard-the-commemorative-events-passover-purim-etc-as-real-historical-events/983918/42 "2023-05-13T01:17:23Z")
> [@Johnny\_Bravo](#): > > No. The central thing is how all the events (the burning bush, the plagues, the escape, the wandering, _dayenu_) culminated in the formation of the covenant between God and the Jews. The killing of the firstborns is dramatic, but it’s just one drop of wine out of ten. > > And that’s just the religious bit. In my cultural tradition, the central point is how we free people have a responsibility to make the world better for those who aren’t. This. “Passover” is just a name. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2023, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-many-jews-regard-the-commemorative-events-passover-purim-etc-as-real-historical-events/983918/43 "2023-05-13T02:10:13Z")
So it’s a bunch of edifying stories, just as I said above. That’s tl;dr. The elevator pitch is right there in the name. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2023, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-many-jews-regard-the-commemorative-events-passover-purim-etc-as-real-historical-events/983918/44 "2023-05-13T02:33:50Z")
> [@PhillyGuy](#): > > (Easter seems to be the name of a pagan spring-time godess.) About which pretty much the only thing we know is that she has a spring holiday named after her. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2023, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-many-jews-regard-the-commemorative-events-passover-purim-etc-as-real-historical-events/983918/45 "2023-05-13T02:55:16Z")
Fortunate then for those of us who find meaning in the stories that we experience much much than the elevator pitch. As a very secular Jew, who has no memory of thinking of Passover as anything other than a story, the holiday has always been filled with great meaning to me. Everything is explicitly symbolic. The plagues are definitely part of the story, a part not celebrated but acknowledged and noted how they diminish the joy of our freedom. You can play the part of the second rebellious child though. And those who know the Seder know what is said to them. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2023, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-many-jews-regard-the-commemorative-events-passover-purim-etc-as-real-historical-events/983918/46 "2023-05-13T03:41:29Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > second rebellious child … know[s] what is said to them Yep, I’m not redeemed. Nor am I likely to be. With that, I’m saying bye-bye to this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2023, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-many-jews-regard-the-commemorative-events-passover-purim-etc-as-real-historical-events/983918/47 "2023-05-13T03:59:42Z")
Feels like a missed opportunity to make an “exodus” pun, but whatever. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2023, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-many-jews-regard-the-commemorative-events-passover-purim-etc-as-real-historical-events/983918/48 "2023-05-13T05:38:16Z")
> [@Johnny\_Bravo](#): > > And that’s just the religious bit. In my cultural tradition, the central point is how we free people have a responsibility to make the world better for those who aren’t. I suspect that is a later interpretation. When I was a kid I thought the Exodus was real, but I don’t think we ever were taught that Esther was. Pure fiction, and not a bit historically accurate since we have pretty good knowledge of the rulers of Persia. Pesach is a lot more about freedom from a people who had been or still were taken to Babylon. BTW, fun fact. Workers on the pyramids etc. had health insurance, in that if they got sick or were injured the government would send a doctor and food. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2023, 8:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-many-jews-regard-the-commemorative-events-passover-purim-etc-as-real-historical-events/983918/49 "2023-05-13T08:26:04Z")
> [@Q.Q.Switcheroo](#): > > Then there’s Hanukkah, which **is** based on [historical events](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanukkah#story), but we tend to gloss over them and teach our kids that it’s about the “miracle of the oil”…or we teach the actual history in generic terms, as a version of the Exodus story with the serial numbers filed off. (“The evil monarch [Antiochus/Pharaoh] tried to oppress the Jews, but the hero [Judah Maccabee/Moses] led us to freedom!”) I’ve heard that American Jews tend to emphasize the miracle part of the story and Israeli Jews tend to emphasize the military part of the story. Can’t confirm, though, as I’ve never been to Israel and known very few Israelis in my life. > [@Hari\_Seldon](#): > > I have read (sorry, no cite) that there is no trace of the old Egyptian language in Hebrew. Therefor the idea that the Israelites spent generations in Egypt is implausible. The old Egyptian language and Hebrew are both Semitic languages of the Afro-Asiatic language family. There are going to be similarities between them. The other thing is that Egypt was a powerhouse in the ancient world and everybody had contact with them. Rather like America is a superpower today and there are American influences everywhere in the world these days, including on languages. Even if the ancient Hebrews (or those that became the Hebrews) weren’t slaves in Egypt, or residing in Egypt, they most certainly had trade and cultural contact with Egypt. > [@Babale](#): > > I’m not sure about oral language, but this is wrong when it comes to written language; Hebrew uses a derived form of the Phonecian alphabet, and Phonecian uses simplified Egyptian hieroglyphics to create a phonetic (heh) alphabet. Fun fact: the Latin and Cyrillic alphabets are _also_ related to/derived from the ancient Phonecian alphabet via Ancient Greek, meaning our languages are also touched by Ancient Egypt. If the current scripts used today to write such diverse languages as English, Finnish, and Vietnamese all trace back to Ancient Egypt then the notion that Hebrew is somehow untouched by that language is a bit implausible given that they were near neighbors and existed at the same time. > [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > The central point to Passover is that God passed over the houses of the Jews and killed other first-borns. Talk about genocide. Good thing it never happened. > > We’re talking about people who believe that is actual history and still worship that God? Holy Moses. I think I have only ever met one Jewish family that took the story literally. The vast majority of Jews do not take the Bible literally. That’s a Protestant Christian affliction these days. And in this very thread we have a number of Jews who are atheists - that’s a funny thing about Judaism, you aren’t actually required to believe anything to be part of the culture and rituals. ---
**Author:** ![Marvin\_the\_Martian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/marvin_the_martian/32/2898_2.png) [@Marvin\_the\_Martian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marvin_the_Martian)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2023, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-many-jews-regard-the-commemorative-events-passover-purim-etc-as-real-historical-events/983918/50 "2023-05-13T12:50:17Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > And in this very thread we have a number of Jews who are atheists - that’s a funny thing about Judaism, you aren’t actually required to believe anything to be part of the culture and rituals. Do the conservative and orthodox sects openly look down on those who celebrate holidays “culturally” rather than “religiously” the same way that extremist Christians diss those of us who celebrate Christmas as purely cultural holiday? ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2023, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-many-jews-regard-the-commemorative-events-passover-purim-etc-as-real-historical-events/983918/51 "2023-05-13T13:01:38Z")
From an Orthodox perspective, there’s probably not much difference between an observant reform Jew and a fully atheist Jew. They’re both Jewish, and they’re both huge disappointments to their mothers probably. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2023, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-many-jews-regard-the-commemorative-events-passover-purim-etc-as-real-historical-events/983918/52 "2023-05-13T13:05:10Z")
I’ve heard the perspective that belief isn’t required in Judaism, only obedience to the laws, and that one can hence be a Jew in full good standing (and satisfactory to one’s mother) even while being an atheist. I don’t know how common that view is, though. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2023, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-many-jews-regard-the-commemorative-events-passover-purim-etc-as-real-historical-events/983918/53 "2023-05-13T13:14:03Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > I’ve heard the perspective that belief isn’t required in Judaism, only obedience to the laws, and that one can hence be a Jew in full good standing (and satisfactory to one’s mother) even while being an atheist. I don’t know how common that view is Common enough that I’ve also heard it, anyway. And in my case you’d have to go back at least to my great-grandmother to find a mother disappointed about it. My grandmother became a vehement atheist (I don’t know whether her mother was disappointed.) My mother believed in God in some sense, I think, but she never particularly talked about it, and we didn’t keep kosher or ourselves practice any rituals or holidays, though we occasionally went to other people’s celebrations; and my sister’s family joined a synagogue (which would have disappointed my grandmother!) and all their kids (now adults) got bar or bat mitzvahed; some practice more than others. We all are/were still Jewish, though. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2023, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-many-jews-regard-the-commemorative-events-passover-purim-etc-as-real-historical-events/983918/54 "2023-05-13T13:27:13Z")
> [@Johnny\_Bravo](#): > > From an Orthodox perspective, there’s probably not much difference between an observant reform Jew and a fully atheist Jew. My understanding is that both would be apostates. Much better a righteous Gentile who follows the Noachide Laws than an apostate. I was raised with mantra that in Judaism belief is if not non-essential, at least is expected to _follow_ observance of the laws. Actions first then the relationship with God follows. But I since heard that since a major commandment is the Shmah, one must follow that commandment or be an apostate. Not sure what all devout observant Orthodox think, but _some_ do look at the secular with some contempt. Given the day our board Orthodox members will not answer today! ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2023, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-many-jews-regard-the-commemorative-events-passover-purim-etc-as-real-historical-events/983918/55 "2023-05-13T14:41:57Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > The other thing is that Egypt was a powerhouse in the ancient world and everybody had contact with them. Rather like America is a superpower today and there are American influences everywhere in the world these days, including on languages. Even if the ancient Hebrews (or those that became the Hebrews) weren’t slaves in Egypt, or residing in Egypt, they most certainly had trade and cultural contact with Egypt. Well, not to mention that Egypt definitely controlled what is now Israel at various times (and also other kingdoms from beyond Israel would go through to conquer Egypt at times). ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2023, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-many-jews-regard-the-commemorative-events-passover-purim-etc-as-real-historical-events/983918/56 "2023-05-13T15:52:35Z")
> [@Johnny\_Bravo](#): > > From an Orthodox perspective, there’s probably not much difference between an observant reform Jew and a fully atheist Jew. They’re both Jewish, and they’re both huge disappointments to their mothers probably. My mother was president of the temple, and spoke on Yom Kippur about being an atheist and a Jew. So no, my Reform-ness was certainly not a disappointment to her. My grandmother was Reform, too. I guess on my father’s side my grandmother was a somewhat observant Orthodox Jew. But she died before i was born. I’ve known two practicing Orthodox Jews who told me they don’t believe in God, fwiw. One made aliah to Israel, and the other is extremely active in his shul. So both are pretty into being Jewish, despite not believing in God. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2023, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-many-jews-regard-the-commemorative-events-passover-purim-etc-as-real-historical-events/983918/57 "2023-05-13T16:21:14Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > > [@Johnny\_Bravo](#): > > > > From an Orthodox perspective, there’s probably not much difference between an observant reform Jew and a fully atheist Jew. They’re both Jewish, and they’re both huge disappointments to their mothers probably. > > My mother was president of the temple, and spoke on Yom Kippur about being an atheist and a Jew. So no, my Reform-ness was certainly not a disappointment to her. My grandmother was Reform, too. I guess on my father’s side my grandmother was a somewhat observant Orthodox Jew. But she died before i was born. > > I’ve known two practicing Orthodox Jews who told me they don’t believe in God, fwiw. One made aliah to Israel, and the other is extremely active in his shul. So both are pretty into being Jewish, despite not believing in God My experience with the Orthodox (and even ‘observant but not quite Orthodox’) in Israel aligns precisely with @Johnny_Bravo’s description. Highly observant Jewish folks in the US, even Orthodox ones, are much more chill. One example: it’s very normal in the US for less observant Jewish people to go to synagogue one day a year, that being Yom Kippur. It’s the same in Israel. Quick note: my dad grew up fairly observant, and he’s NOT a fan of reform synagogues. So despite the fact that he acts very secularly in everyday life, we would always go to synagogues that are aroubd Chabad level of traditionalism. Here in the US, Chabad knows that most of the people showing up to Yom Kippur service are not actually very observant outside of that. And so no one raises a stink about people who drive to services, even though obviously the Chabad people do not. But in Israel, driving to those synagogues is a big no-no. The regulars who are there weekly will not only look down at you for doing so; they may actually say something. Chabad in the US does a lot more outreach to secular Jewish people, whereas the religious community in Israel is far more insular, IME. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2023, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-many-jews-regard-the-commemorative-events-passover-purim-etc-as-real-historical-events/983918/58 "2023-05-13T16:32:22Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > ’ve known two practicing Orthodox Jews who told me they don’t believe in God, fwiw. I was specifically referring to the idea of an atheist non-practicing Jew. From an orthodox pov, both the practicing reform and the non-practicing atheist have all but abandoned the law, although both are equally Jewish (not taking patrilineal stuff into account). I’m reconstructionist myself, so none of this should be construed as being dismissive of liberal Judaism. The bit about mothers was of course facetious. Mostly. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2023, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-many-jews-regard-the-commemorative-events-passover-purim-etc-as-real-historical-events/983918/59 "2023-05-13T16:35:56Z")
> [@Johnny\_Bravo](#): > > From an Orthodox perspective, there’s probably not much difference between an observant reform Jew and a fully atheist Jew. They’re both Jewish, and they’re both huge disappointments to their mothers probably. My grandfather was an atheist, and to say my mother was non-observant would be putting it mildly. I would only have been a disappointment to her if I turned Orthodox. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2023, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-many-jews-regard-the-commemorative-events-passover-purim-etc-as-real-historical-events/983918/60 "2023-05-13T16:44:09Z")
As for whether Jewish people take these stories literally… one of my formative memories, and one which started me on the path of questioning the stories I was raised on, comes from a Chabad synagogue in the United States. On Saturday services, you have some people read from that week’s Torah portion, after which there’s a related reading from one of the later books of the bible, which is usually thematically related to the Torah portion. In between, the rabbi delivers something similar to a sermon, where he tries to apply the lessons of the readings to modern life. As a quick aside, they generally do a decent job here, even at Chabad; I think the fact that rabbis live relatively normal lives, building families and raising kids, helps keep them somewhat grounded. This particular sermon, though, was… something else. See, that week’s Torah portion covered God giving Moses the Ten Commandments on Mount Sinai. And the rabbi’s sermon basically boiled down to: 1. Jews believe that when you go back a generation, you come closer to this momentous event, where God gave the Jewish People the Torah 2. Other people believe that when you go back a generation you are closer to monkeys 3. This is why Jews respect their parents while other people do not Even at the time (I was probably 13 or so), this line of reasoning didn’t impress me in the least, and contributed to me allowing myself to start questioning things that I had been told. But, it clearly demonstrates that this Chabad rabbi, at least, does take this story completely literally. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-many-jews-regard-the-commemorative-events-passover-purim-etc-as-real-historical-events/983918.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-many-jews-regard-the-commemorative-events-passover-purim-etc-as-real-historical-events/983918.md?page=4)