# Do many Jews regard the commemorative events (Passover, Purim, etc.) as real historical events? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 12, 2023, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-many-jews-regard-the-commemorative-events-passover-purim-etc-as-real-historical-events/983918 "2023-05-12T01:23:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2023, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-many-jews-regard-the-commemorative-events-passover-purim-etc-as-real-historical-events/983918/61 "2023-05-13T18:06:53Z")
I used to work with a Lubuvitcher (chabad) who took the Bible pretty literally. Maybe it’s their thing. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2023, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-many-jews-regard-the-commemorative-events-passover-purim-etc-as-real-historical-events/983918/62 "2023-05-13T19:44:03Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > I’ve heard the perspective that belief isn’t required in Judaism, only obedience to the laws, and that one can hence be a Jew in full good standing (and satisfactory to one’s mother) even while being an atheist. I don’t know how common that view is, though. I’ve heard that quite a bit, even from some very Orthodox/Observant Jews. Also every atheist Jew I’ve ever met who cared about the matter at all (a lot of them don’t). A lot of the very Orthodox/Ultra-Orthodox are about what, to my view (but not theirs) is obsessive observance of law and ritual, in contrast to the extremely conservative Christian types for whom belief is paramount. > [@DSeid](#): > > My understanding is that both would be apostates. Much better a righteous Gentile who follows the Noachide Laws than an apostate. But an atheist Jew who follows Jewish law is indistinguishable from a non-apostate Jew, and if they at least followed the Noahide laws I don’t think they’d be shunned or anything like that. > [@DSeid](#): > > I was raised with mantra that in Judaism belief is if not non-essential, at least is expected to _follow_ observance of the laws. Actions first then the relationship with God follows. But I since heard that since a major commandment is the Shmah, one must follow that commandment or be an apostate. There is nothing preventing an atheist Jew from practicing that or anything else connected to Judaism. I used to work with a very staunch atheist who nonetheless went through the whole year-long Orthodox mourning ritual when his father died because his father had asked him to do so. Certainly, atheist Jews for whom Jewish culture and tradition are important for whatever reason, or who wish to stay in the good graces of a more observant family, may well participate fully in a Jewish community. And they don’t even have to be quiet about it - I’ve yet to encounter a Jewish community that didn’t have atheist Jews. They don’t make a big deal about it, but if you ask them they’ll give you an honest answer. The more religious Jews might think the atheists are missing out on something but it’s not something to cause arguments like it would in Christian communities. > [@Babale](#): > > So despite the fact that he acts very secularly in everyday life, we would always go to synagogues that are aroubd Chabad level of traditionalism. Heck, I’m a “Schrodinger Jew” - whether or not I’m Jewish depends on the standards of whomever is looking at me - and Chadad welcomes me. They’re very much about outreach in the US, and at least the ones I’ve encountered are also open to teaching non-Jews about their religion and culture if asked (but they do not proselytize among Gentiles). So yes, a lot of Jews who aren’t Chabad and aren’t Orthodox do associate with Chabad and do go to Chabad gatherings and events. > [@Johnny\_Bravo](#): > > I was specifically referring to the idea of an atheist non-practicing Jew. From an orthodox pov, both the practicing reform and the non-practicing atheist have all but abandoned the law, although both are equally Jewish (not taking patrilineal stuff into account). My limited experience is that people like Chabad are interested in encouraging such people to follow Jewish law again rather than starting an argument with them. Not saying arguments don’t happen - heck, highly animated discussions are definitely part of the culture - but Jews are Jews whether they’re following Jewish law or not. And after WWII there have been a lot of Jews turn up who don’t even know they’re Jewish, in no small part because of people masquerading as Christians to save their skins and then not telling the kids all the details about their past. [US Secretary of State Madeline Albright claimed to not know she was Jewish until her late 50’s](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madeleine_Albright#Personal_life), as one example. And a certain number of people who survived WWII gave up on G\*d while in the camps or witnessing any number of horrors. A non-practicing atheist Jew might not be regarded as a blessing by some but they’re still fully Jewish. There might be some ritual issues around the matter, but for a non-practicing atheist Jew that probably won’t matter. At least in the US - I have no idea how this sort of thing is seen in Israel. > [@Babale](#): > > But, it clearly demonstrates that this Chabad rabbi, at least, does take this story completely literally. > [@puzzlegal](#): > > I used to work with a Lubuvitcher (chabad) who took the Bible pretty literally. Maybe it’s their thing. Yeah, if any one Judaism is going to take the Bible literally it would Chabad or one of the Ultra-Orthodox types. That’s only a minority of Jews, though. (You have to be careful about articles that say things like "40% of Jews have engaged with Chabad. Just because I talk to the local Chabad family and may have gone to a Passover sedar at their place does not mean I myself am Chabad or have any interest in being Chabad. It’s just that they’re the ones the have the seder open to all which is important for those of us who don’t have families in the area to celebrate with.) ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2023, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-many-jews-regard-the-commemorative-events-passover-purim-etc-as-real-historical-events/983918/63 "2023-05-13T21:52:08Z")
Heck, I’ve been to a couple of services with Chabad just out of curiosity, and because my coworker invited me. Yeah, I’m an American Jew who as “engaged with” Chabad. I reject most of their teachings, though. (And haven’t engaged with them in decades.) ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2023, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-many-jews-regard-the-commemorative-events-passover-purim-etc-as-real-historical-events/983918/64 "2023-05-13T22:46:14Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > I’m not sure about oral language, but this is wrong when it comes to written language; Hebrew uses a derived form of the Phonecian alphabet, and Phonecian uses simplified Egyptian hieroglyphics to create a phonetic (heh) alphabet. Don’t confuse the language with the writing system. The story of the alphabet is complicated and very interesting, but has little to do with language. Starting as pictographs, then using the initial sound of the pictograph to stand for that sound, then modifying the picture till it bore little or no relation to the original picture, meantime borrowed and reborrowed till it came to a language that didn’t use all the consonants (initially vowels were omitted), then repurposing the unused consonants to represent vowels and then undergoing further modifications. Shortest Passover service I ever attended, in toto: “The Jews escaped from Egypt. Now let’s eat”. Really. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2023, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-many-jews-regard-the-commemorative-events-passover-purim-etc-as-real-historical-events/983918/65 "2023-05-13T23:06:50Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > There is nothing preventing an atheist Jew from practicing that or anything else connected to Judaism. An atheist can practice: “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might.”? I do actually agree that God belief is non-essential, or, as I’ve read elsewhere, [non-central](https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/must-a-jew-believe-in-god/), in Judaism. That My Jewish Learning link is a good bit. It really places the need for God belief as a Maimonides thing more than anything else. Of course that was the era that set up a few centuries later having Spinoza excommunicated as a heretic. In support of your take they have this: > [@](#): > > Rabbinic Judaism demanded action–the fulfillment of the commandments–not the assertion of specific beliefs. Perhaps the most striking example of this position is a commentary on the verse in Jeremiah, which states: “[They] have forsaken me and have not kept my Torah .” To which the _Pesikta D’Rav Kahana_ , a 5th- to 7th-century midrash, glosses: “If only they had forsaken me and kept my Torah.” And I also like the interpretation that belief is less desired than _awe_. Which brings back to the OP. > [@](#): > > Wettstein argues that a similar approach is available to one who wishes to avoid supernaturalism altogether. Just as the non-literalist theist finds meaning in the narrative of creation without necessarily believing it to be “true,” so too the naturalist can find meaning in the story–and all of Judaism–without believing in the objective reality of a supernatural God. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2023, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-many-jews-regard-the-commemorative-events-passover-purim-etc-as-real-historical-events/983918/66 "2023-05-13T23:19:13Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > An atheist can practice: “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might.”? An atheist can say the words when called to do so by ritual. There’s nothing in the rules requiring said atheist to believe in those words. Performance is entirely possible even when belief is absent. Indeed, one Orthodox Jew I was discussing this with once upon a time asserted his belief that if the ritual was performed sufficiently often believe might come from the repeated actions. Personally, I didn’t buy it, but if he found that notion comforting I wasn’t going to take it away from him. ---
**Author:** ![Chingon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chingon/32/17645_2.png) [@Chingon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chingon)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2023, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-many-jews-regard-the-commemorative-events-passover-purim-etc-as-real-historical-events/983918/67 "2023-05-13T23:29:23Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > There’s nothing in the rules requiring said atheist to believe in those words. Well there are those pesky Ten Commandments… ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2023, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-many-jews-regard-the-commemorative-events-passover-purim-etc-as-real-historical-events/983918/68 "2023-05-13T23:32:31Z")
It is pretty uncontroversial that Egyptian is an Afro-Asiatic language just like, and related to, Hebrew: > [@](#): > > Egyptian is the ancient and original language of Egypt. It belongs to the language family known as Afroasiatic or Hamito-Semitic, and is related to both of that family’s branches: North African (or Hamitic) languages such as Berber and Hausa; and Asiatic (or Semitic) languages such as Arabic, Ethiopic, and Hebrew. Within Afroasiatic, Egyptian is unique, with no close relative of its own. It has features that are common to both branches; where it differs, it is often closer to the African side of the family. [_Middle Egyptian: An Introduction to the Language and Culture of Hieroglyphs,_ James P. Allen] That is, of course, not the same as saying something like that the Hebrew language is a dialect of a (non-Semitic) language like Egyptian, but there are absolutely a handful of Egyptian loanwords in the Torah (about 0.91% if [this](https://www.asor.org/anetoday/2020/06/loanwords-hebrew-bible) table is accurate). ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2023, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-many-jews-regard-the-commemorative-events-passover-purim-etc-as-real-historical-events/983918/69 "2023-05-13T23:45:48Z")
On phone having trouble typing short answer 10 commandments require action not belief. Give long answer when I am at computer ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2023, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-many-jews-regard-the-commemorative-events-passover-purim-etc-as-real-historical-events/983918/70 "2023-05-13T23:47:37Z")
BTW [www.karaites.org](http://www.karaites.org) explicitly says that certain passages in the Torah are metaphorical, parabolic, or prophetic visions, etc.: [https://web.archive.org/web/20221218215755/https://www.karaites.org/uploads/7/4/1/3/7413835/mikdash\_meat\_section\_10\_ten\_principles\_of\_faith.pdf](https://web.archive.org/web/20221218215755/https://www.karaites.org/uploads/7/4/1/3/7413835/mikdash_meat_section_10_ten_principles_of_faith.pdf) At the same time, they affirm certain principles of faith, including, unsurprisingly, belief in God. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2023, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-many-jews-regard-the-commemorative-events-passover-purim-etc-as-real-historical-events/983918/71 "2023-05-14T01:37:16Z")
I’m back home now. Sorry, I find it nearly physically painful to type on my phone. As I was saying, the only one of the ten that speaks to emotion/thought rather than action is ‘thou shall not covet’. All the rest are commands to do or not do things. ---
**Author:** ![Chingon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chingon/32/17645_2.png) [@Chingon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chingon)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2023, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-many-jews-regard-the-commemorative-events-passover-purim-etc-as-real-historical-events/983918/72 "2023-05-14T01:46:19Z")
Bearing false witness takes thought. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2023, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-many-jews-regard-the-commemorative-events-passover-purim-etc-as-real-historical-events/983918/73 "2023-05-14T01:47:20Z")
But the command is not ‘do not think about lying’ it is a command ‘do not lie’ a ban on action. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2023, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-many-jews-regard-the-commemorative-events-passover-purim-etc-as-real-historical-events/983918/74 "2023-05-14T20:04:32Z")
And anyway, Jews don’t have “the ten commandments”. They have 613 commandments. ---
**Author:** ![smithsb](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smithsb/32/12107_2.png) [@smithsb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smithsb)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2023, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-many-jews-regard-the-commemorative-events-passover-purim-etc-as-real-historical-events/983918/75 "2023-05-14T20:08:51Z")
That’s a lot of guilt. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2023, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-many-jews-regard-the-commemorative-events-passover-purim-etc-as-real-historical-events/983918/76 "2023-05-14T20:11:19Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > And anyway, Jews don’t have “the ten commandments”. עשרת הדיברות is definitely part of Judaism, even if there are 603 additional מצוות. Both words translate as “commandments” but they are different things. ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2023, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-many-jews-regard-the-commemorative-events-passover-purim-etc-as-real-historical-events/983918/77 "2023-05-18T00:27:03Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > An atheist can practice: “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might.”? An excellent point. Although I am an atheist, I do follow a few of the rituals (e.g. fasting on Yom Kippur), although I am not sure why. I once met a rabbi who admitted to not believing in God. Although he must have recited the Shemah. I asked why he became a rabbi and he gave some bull about being a social worker. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2023, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-many-jews-regard-the-commemorative-events-passover-purim-etc-as-real-historical-events/983918/78 "2023-05-18T00:35:38Z")
I knew an atheist rabbi for a bit. He worked at Camp Isabella Friedman. Bunch of frum (religiously observant) Jewish hippies. Needless to say, I LOVE Camp Isabella Friedman. ---
**Author:** ![md-2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@md-2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md-2000)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2023, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-many-jews-regard-the-commemorative-events-passover-purim-etc-as-real-historical-events/983918/79 "2023-05-18T01:52:02Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > Back when I lived with my folks and TLC and Discovery were more reliable, I saw a documentary on a cluster of salt pillars in one of the deserts in the Middle East. It does indeed look like, though I am NOT saying it is, a bunch of people turned to salt. Driving north along the Dead Sea, the Jordanian guide pointed out the pillar that was allegedly Lot’s wife, up on top a cliff… 😃 OTOH, reading the long story of Lot, it was simply a way to grossly insult their neighbours by calling them descendants of incestuous reations by a family from a (literally) town of sodomites. Plus the important lesson, “please do not try to bugger the angels”. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2023, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-many-jews-regard-the-commemorative-events-passover-purim-etc-as-real-historical-events/983918/80 "2023-05-18T14:45:35Z")
Am I the only one who heard that pillar of salt bit as a metaphor for being immobilized by grief, salt being tears? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-many-jews-regard-the-commemorative-events-passover-purim-etc-as-real-historical-events/983918.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/do-many-jews-regard-the-commemorative-events-passover-purim-etc-as-real-historical-events/983918.md?page=5)