In Canada, you can have a major operation and not pay a dime. Somehow the fact that drugs are not included in every Province, means that maybe it is possible that someone got in financial trouble with prescriptions. Of course if he had to pay 100,000 bucks for an operation on top of that, does not seem to sway some rightys. See, its the same. No it is not.
You’re linking to same article. If you bothered to read them you’ll notice it’s the same guys at Harvard using the same methodology, lead by Himmelstein.
A simple Google search will find dozens of articles referencing the same group at Harvard. But to you I’m sure that really means lots of studies that all say what you want them to hear.
And you’re still ignoring the fact that it happens in Canada as well, and place with UHC.
That is not true, and I invite you to show even a shred of evidence that it is true. That’s now the second time you’ve made shit up about Canada’s health care system. There are cost associated with medical care that fall outside of the Canadian Health Act, even before there is loss of income.
And for a person already in financial trouble, that operation will contribute to their bankruptcy filing.
Not just possible. Possible would suggest that on and odd occasion it might happen. Stats from the Government of Canada found medical related bankruptcies account for 15%. Where the same methodology found it was 17% in the US. Using the same methodology as the guys from Harvard would probably find similar numbers in Canada as the US. But that wouldn’t help your case would it?
At that point what does it matter when it was the $1000 worth of prescriptions and ambulance bills paid on credit, without any income, that broke him/her? Bankruptcy is essentially and all or nothing situation, in for a dime in for a dollar.
Here is the link again from the Government of Canada showing the cited causes of bankruptcy for people over 55
If we really wanted to, and had zero integrity, we could lump several of those causes under the heading, “medically related.” It’s not uncommon for a marriage to fall apart because of it. We’ve already talked about loss of income, or too little income. Credit card debt can be caused by medical costs. Which low and behold gets us up to 71% !!!
This site says that in 2010 the number citing “medical reasons” was only 42%, still a long way off from the 62% claimed before.
The ‘over 55’ part seems to be odd if you’re comparing to the USA numbers which seem to include all ages.
Call me crazy, but I’d assume that people over 55 are more likely to get sick, and therefore more likely to have high non-covered costs, and therefore more bankruptcies.
[QUOTE=emacknight;14316470
At that point what does it matter when it was the $1000 worth of prescriptions and ambulance bills paid on credit, without any income, that broke him/her? Bankruptcy is essentially and all or nothing situation, in for a dime in for a dollar.[/QUOTE]
You actually wrote that? Owing 1,000 or 101,000 makes no difference. Do you really believe that?
I guess I’m a shred. Over the years I have had several operations and a multi-month stay in hospital, all without paying a dime.
It is the folks who require medication outside of the hospital who run into trouble.
Are you saying it is impossible in Canada to have a major operation and pay nothing? Because I can assure you it is quite possible.
Thanks for the response.
I guess it still doesn’t mean someone in Canada would go bankrupt through health costs alone.
In fact, I don’t think I’ve ever even seen a hospital bill, despite several hospital stays and a couple of significant operations.
It’s not about “seeing a hospital bill*.”
How did you get to the hospital? Was there a parking fee? Ambulances aren’t typically covered. Afterwards how did you get home?
Did you have to take an meds before the operation?
While at the hospital, did any friends or family visit? Did you/they buy anything to eat? Opt for a tv or phone in your room? Take time off work or travel to be there? Use any vacation time?
After the operation, did you need any post-op medications, followup care, physio, OT?
Most major operations I can think of involve emergency scenarios involving an ambulance, which cost more than a dime.
Anything else would involve some sort of pre-op care, starting with seeing a specialist, and taking some meds before hand. And it’s going to requires meds after along with post-op care.
The nature of population distribution in Canada means that major operations are done in major city centers. That means most people have considerable travel costs associated with treatment.
Back to the case of my mother: she was on heavy pain killers before chemo, which were expensive. There was also a lot else involved before chemo ever started. And then, when it did start it was a long drive to the hospital, including bridge fare, and $7 parking. Sitting there for several hours at a time was long and boring. Some drinks and snacks were provided but she often picked up a Tim’s on her way up. After most treatments we stopped at the pharmacy to pick up more meds, that weren’t free.
Lastly, I find it hard to believe none of you contributed to Federal or Provincial coffers though taxes either income, or sales.
To say “not pay a dime” is factually incorrect.
*When I was living in Ontario 7 years ago the province start issuing bills to patients showing them what they had receive.
And I repeat, I never had to pay a dime.
I think it would be worth sorting out the wheat from the chaff when looking at which medical costs in Canada push people into bankruptcy.
A family member paying a couple of bucks for bus fare or parking while visiting a sick person is not going to sink anyone, let alone the patient. Nor is 45 bucks for an ambulance. Nor is having to use up sick days or vacation days. Nor is having a snack at Tims.
You have raised some good examples of medical costs and related non-medical costs that can be considerable, so lets have a look at them, rather than going on about trivialities.
Interesting. I have lived in Ontario for half a century, and I have never received a bill showing me what I had received.
I’m pretty sure no one’s considering the two bucks for a coffee at the cafeteria or the admittedly annoying parking fees (maybe $10 a day) at hospitals as particularly onerous or barriers to health care and potential causes of bankruptcy, or as something that we’re expecting single-payer health care to cover. I mean, I thought you were maybe going to say that we all pay in taxes for our health care, which at least has the benefit of being partially true and on topic.
British Columbia, at least, subsidizes such costs for the patient.
Frankly, I don’t think anyone in this thread was of the impression that driving to the hospital is somehow magically free. I think everyone was just dismissing it because it’s clearly not relevant to the discussion at hand.
There’s the rub. We all pay our taxes for health care, but some of us have our medically necessary treatment covered fully, while others only have our medically necessary medical treatment partially covered due to out-of-hospital medication usually not being covered.
I don’t have any figures on it, but my best guess is that when socialized health care developed in Canada (local hospitals in the first half of the last century, Saskatchewan in the mid-40s, then other provinces, and then the feds in the mid-60s), the focus was on doctors and hospitals, and not on medications. I suspect that had the folks in those days known that medications would take on a greater role in maintaining people’s health, we would not have such a huge gap in our health care as we do now. It’s a bit like tripping just before the finish line.
As it stands, our provinces do a lot to keep medication costs down by using their bulk purchasing power to cap prices paid for various drugs, and by putting programs in place to cover drug costs for seniors, very poor people, and people who are facing huge drug costs. Thus I don’t see many people going bankrupt due to drug costs, however, I am concerned that the cost of medication might very well be a barrier to health for people who are on the financial ropes and go off their meds rather than go bankrupt (obviously a dumb choice). I don’t have any stats on this, so I don’t know if my concerns hold water or not.
Okay, not a dime might be a tiny exaggeration if you want to the include the kitchen sink, the cat and the cost of breathing into a Total Cost of Ownership (TCO) calculation, but I would say that’s asine at best.
Ontario does that now as well, but had some growing pains, in that for a few years people from Toronto (a megopolis) were being subsidized for travelling to Thunder Bay (a city of a bit over 100,000 in the middle of nowhere) for treatment, but people from Thunder Bay were not subsidized for travelling to Toronto for treatment. The program is working much better now. http://www.health.gov.on.ca/en/public/publications/ohip/northern.aspx
When it comes to northern healthcare, here in Ontario a dual-campus med-school in the northwest and the northeast has helped increase the number of doctors up here. Not all of the young docs stick around, but quite a few do (including my own GP).
The other big developement in northern health care in Ontario has been in telecommunications. At the physicians’ level, a lot of diagnostic imaging is now being handled over teh intrawebs, as well as video conferencing between physicians. At the patient’s level, programs for cardiac recovery, stroke recovery, pain management, and chronic illness management are being offered through tele-health/tele-medicine, in addition to actual video visits by patients to their doctors. These advances in telecommunications make it possible to have good hospitals in small communities in the middle of nowhere, such as Manitouwadge as I mentoned in the previous thread, and greatly reduce the number and frequency of long journeys by patients to regional centres. Have a look at the Ontario Telemedicine Network:
This technology is in its infancy, but I expect that it will grow and develop over the years into something that makes for a far more efficient allocation of medical resources, and makes it possible to deliver better health services to people who live in the sticks than can be delivered today.