That discussion was never about bankruptcy, it was the misguided notion that major surgery in Canada is free (doesn’t cost a dime). You still had to get to and from the hospital, imagine if you were even further from where that operation was offered. Then imagine it wasn’t you having the operation but a young child or elderly parent. Again, not enough to cause bankruptcy all on it’s own, but part of medical costs, meaning that major surgery is not free.
From there, it happens that some Canadians are forced into bankruptcy in part because of medical costs. For those over 55 it happens to be 15% of bankruptcy filings.
Crap, I just realized I had a major operation as an infant and didn’t pay a dime, so I guess I count as an example too. At least I assume I didn’t because I’m not sure where I would have gotten any money from.
So there you go gonzomax, you can have that point.
Another shred here. Minor surgery in my case, in and out the same day; and given some pain meds to take with me. I will admit stopping by the coffee shop in the hospital lobby for coffee after the procedure–it took place in the very early morning, and I didn’t have my morning coffee beforehand. So, I spent $2, but the only bill presented to me at the hospital was by the coffee shop. Oh, I probably also paid $5 to park. For the surgery and the hospital-supplied meds–I neither saw a bill nor paid a dime out of pocket.
We all know our tax dollars go towards health care, so we are aware that it is not free. But certainly, we are not being asked to pay out of pocket at point of service, for co-pays, deductibles, and so on. Things that make a hospital stay more pleasant, like TVs, telephones–and, sure, why not–a good book, a daily newspaper, flowers, get-well-soon cards, parking, and similar–these are not medically necessary; and as such, I do not believe that they should be included in a discussion of medical costs. I suppose you could bankrupt yourself if you bought enough of them, but you don’t need to be in the hospital to do that.
Yes, I do know that. If a person is on the edge of banckrupcy to the degree that the person will be pushed into bankruptcy by hospital TV rental, then that person will simply not rent the TV, rather than rent the TV and then borrow from god knows where for the 800 bucks or so it takes to do bankrupt, followed by nine months of paying the debt down out of whatever the person might have after a modest living allowance is permitted.
If a person on the edge of bankruptcy is pushed over the edge by renting a TV, the cause is not health reasons, it is mental health reasons.
That’s why when it comes to hookers and blow at the hospital, neither are covered, despite the blow being a drug and drugs usually being covered in the hospital. This is the same reason that you get operated on without paying a dime – you simply can’t get a dime because it is not medically necessary.
Look. You seem to be the only person who is pushing this imaginary scenario where someone is saying that surgery in Canada is “free” in the sense of “no cost to me every in any sense of the word”. Nobody here has this misguided notion. You’re fighting an imaginary battle.
When people here are saying “my surgery did not cost me anything” what they are meaning is " my surgery did not cost me anything out of pocket above and beyond the taxes that I pay to fund the health system"
Stop with telling us that our tax dollars fund the health system. We know that. We know that the health system in Canada is not funded my magic unicorns, OK?
Yes, I am sure that some in Canada are forced into bankruptcy (in part) because of extra medical costs above and beyond what is covered by the system. In part is important here, and I’m glad you mentioned it.
There will always be exceptional cases, and “never” is rarely correct in any situation. So it is incorrect to say that NOBODY has ever declared bankruptcy because of medical expenses in Canada.
However, I don’t think that mentioning stopping for Timbits or driving 25 km, or paying for parking or tolls is relevant to the discussion though. It’s just silly. The surgery is free. No, getting your lunch on the way there is not. Driving to the hospital is not covered. Including expenses like these as "medical expenses is foolish.
Among the 15% who reported that “medical expenses” were the cause of bankruptcy, some of them are no doubt being accurate, although “medical related expenses” would have been a more accurate term, no doubt. And I do wonder how many of those who self-reported “medical expenses” should actually have reported something else as the main cause. Of course, the same would be true for the US data.
BTW, patient transfers between hospitals or facilities is NOT billed to the patient.
Oh and by the way, here is what happens when a person needs to traveling to a specialist in Vancouver when they live in Victoria: They will be take a ferry to Vancouver, but the costs of the ferry will be covered by the BC government TAP program. This program will also fund an escort if the patient is underage or otherwise needs one.
It does not cover gas, or meals, or parking, so I guess the patient might be out of pocket $25 or so. Alternatively, they could take the bus, which is fully covered, so they’d be on the hook for meals I guess. Or Timbits. I guess they could then declare bankruptcy because the timbits pushed them over the edge financially.
I can’t believe I’m actually responding to this, HOWEVER:
This argument is stupid. Were I going to work, instead of the hospital, I would have had to pay for transportation, parking, and possibly two Tylenol if I got a headache from staring at my computer screen.
What you’re describing are not ‘medical costs’ - they are the costs of not being a reclusive shut in. If you want to leave your house and go somewhere it costs you - it doesn’t matter if it’s golfing, out for dinner, to visit my grandma or go an get surgery and for you to try to turn these activities into ‘medical costs’ is really, really stupid. You’re making yourself look foolish. You may actually have a valid argument but you’re doing a craptastic job of presenting it.
FWIW, the MUHC superhospital currently under construction in Montreal, and I believe also the CHUM superhospital ditto, will have all patient rooms as single rooms.
In my most recent experiences with inpatient hospitalization (my dad’s final illness and a friend’s hysterectomy), Dad had a single room at the Montreal Neurological Institute and IIRC my friend had a single room at Sainte-Justine.
This ship has long since sailed in the thread, but just wanted to say that Saskatchewan subsidizes prescriptions based on income level. As a single 20-something my prescriptions were heavily subsidized once I had spent $x amount in the year. Even though I already had prescription coverage through work, and made enough money that I never thought I would qualify.
Well sure, but did someone deliver the prescriptions to your house for free? NO! So you had to drive to the pharmacy (or take a bus - cha ching!$$), maybe pay for parking, and then suffer a long wait while they filled your prescription. Maybe while you were there, you bought some Timbits. Were those free? NO they were not.
These were all medical expenses, which could have driven you into bankruptcy.
I wish that was the case, but sadly it was gonzomax that brought it up in the first place:
“In Canada, you can have a major operation and not pay a dime.”
So I pointed out additional costs that go beyond simply the cost of surgery to highlight the fact that health care in Canada is not free.
Simply put, after 6 years in the US I am fucking sick of Americans lying about Canadian health care. For years I had to listen to conservatives on this board misrepresent wait times and the quality of care. Now I get to listen to liberals say things like, “Canadians never go bankrupt from medical costs.”
Canada’s system is so vastly superior to that of the US liberals shouldn’t have to lie to sell it. And it is not without it’s faults and failures, of which there are many, which represent perfectly valid issues of concern for Americans considering the move towards more socialized medicine.
As far as this discussion is concerned, we have a government study that found 15% of bankruptcies for people over 55 were due to medical costs. That’s a pretty high number when you consider how many things are covered. Sadly I still haven’t found stats for those under 55.
So obviously there are enough outside medical costs that are high enough to cause bankruptcy.
What sucks about the US system is that when it happens it happens fast. A normal functioning middle class family can be hit with massive costs. And thankfully Canadians will never face that.
But this is where we get into the second issue of debate, that 62% of American bankruptcies are due to medical costs. To which I believe is a gross exaggeration done to push an agenda. And in doing so undermines the very real fact that health care in the US can destroy people financially. But it’s not enough to say that, people have to essentially lie in order to make the number really really big and really really scary.
Here is where the two issues collide: the study that presented that 62% included everything and anything as medically related costs. It wasn’t enough to focus on people that got hit with a $100,000 bill after insurance denied coverage. The study needed to fixate on the same bankruptcies that also affect Canadians.
Imagine I gave you a week free at all inclusive in the Caribbean, but airfare wasn’t included Would you then say, “I got a vacation and didn’t pay a dime?” Or would you say, “damn, sounds good but no way I can shell out the $600 flight.”
Travel costs are a huge part of health care and a very real issue for discussion. You’d have to be pretty cold to dismiss the difficulty of getting to and from the hospital every day as insignificant.
And we know this is a medical issue because provincial governments have arranged to help cover it, private health insurance will provide rebates, and non-profit groups will offer assistance.
I visited my wife’s uncle in a hospital in India, while there they were telling us about how often health care is completely covered, but the family is responsible for food.
I find it amazing that after all the bitching about poverty on this message board, the cost of travel, parking, and food are so easily dismissed.
For the past 5 years I was working with a US charity that provided meals to people going to cancer treatment. Nutritious food was a huge part of their recovery. We take it for granted that a hospital will provide meals while you are admitted, what if they didn’t? Yet they don’t provide meals for family members. So guess where they end up spending their money? Tim’s in the lobby, which pays rent to the hospital.
If you’re employer charged you parking, and took $4 per day out of your paycheck for your “free lunch” would you consider those the cost of going to work?
Exactly, and now you get the main issue at hand. When the US study reports 62%, how much of that is bullshit? You guys are pretty quick to dismiss the costs that go along with health care. So if we keep applying that same logic to the US study, we’re left wondering how many of the 62% were actually people hit with massive hospital bills, and how many were simply on the end and went further into debt because of the same sort of costs that Canadians face.
This is significant, because when Americans on both sides of the aisle use Canada has an example, there is a pretty good chance they’re making shit up, as evident in the OP. They’ll use a stat that sounds huge (like 62%) and then act as if UHC will magically make that go away. Meanwhile, they’re willfully ignorant of the fact that even with UHC people go bankrupt from medical costs.
This exactly. And guess who happen to be shut ins? Seniors living with medical complications. Who have an extremely difficult time getting to and from the hospital, adding an extra burden to their already dire situation.
Put yourself in someone’s shoes that is extremely poor, and is then inflicted with a serious medical condition. It doesn’t matter how free the health care is if they can’t afford to get to the clinic and back.
We already recognize that problem with the poor when it comes to access to health food choices, quality education, and even job opportunities. Why would we so egregiously dismiss that cost when it comes to health care?
When a hospital charges for parking, those fees to to the hospital and help provide services. That’s part of the costs, not by my definition, but by BCBS that will reimburse those costs.
For Canadians, it should send off alarm bells that we’ve still got improvements to make. It’s not enough that the operation “didn’t cost me a dime.” A coupon for a free Big Mac becomes pretty expensive if they charge $10 to park.
Who is in Toronto right now? Anyone know if there is even parking near the Princess Margaret or Sick Kids? When I was going to school there daily parking in the area was around $22. What does a subway token cost now, $3? Imagine being sick and poor, and having to make your way to the hospital every day for outpatient treatment.
Oh man, I could spend HOURS barreling into and ripping apart the US’s atrocious health care system. Throughout my entire life, I have never had a good experience with the way in which medicine is practiced in the country, and Hell, even now I have nothing but DISDAIN and CONTEMPT for American health care.
Still, at the risk of derailing this topic, I’ll just say this:
How do you think people with transportation issues who are sick get their medications?
What if you don’t have a car? What if the pharmacy isn’t on your bus route? How hard do you expect seniors to work in order to get their meds?
You are surprisingly dismissive of Canadians living in poverty, particularly seniors with chronic illness. You are also remarkably quick to dismiss Canadians not living in BC. Life is hard in the have-not provinces.
The Canadian health care system rocks, not question about that.
But it is not without it’s faults. And I get the sense that Canadians compare it to the US system and figure it’s so much better there isn’t anything left to improve. I personally think that 15% of bankruptcies is too many.
Being poor sucks, and being sick sucks. We really shouldn’t let it be worse for either group, simply because the US system is so massively broken.
Well, the sad thing is that the 62% of medical emergency bankruptcies has become so engrained in US society that most people here just have to figure that going bankrupt due to medical bills is a fucking WAY OF LIFE. Even when they see the US ranked thirty-fucking-seventh in the world in terms of HC systems (in a study by the WHO), people in America still go around blindly asserting that the US is number one in the world in terms of medicine. It seriously boggles my mind.
Hell, I’m one of the minority Americans who has actually HAD experience with the HC system of another Western country (Germany), so that makes me more cultured than most I guess. I have no difficulty labeling US medicine as “abysmal,” “atrocious,” “insulting,” “terrible,” et al. Basically, every negative word you could find in the dictionary I’d apply to HC in this country.